Speaking strictly from a clickers perspective I think we are way over analyzing what is required in order to toughen up this game for better players. All that really needs to be done is for the "perfect area" to be shrunken to at least half and preferably more than that of what it currently is. I would then like to see an area that is slightly smaller than the current "perfect area" result in a slight fade or draw. Anything beyond that should cause shots to be well off line. If this was done it wouldn't be necessary to speed up the meter. Leave the speed alone so that it's standard for anyone that prefers playing various difficulty settings. Additionally I agree that the physics on putts is not quite right. Often it appears that putts that are hit with too much speed still get sucked up.

I understand that EA is trying to appeal to the masses and fears making the game too difficult will turn off the less than hardcore players but I think all that anyone is asking is for is for there to be various levels of difficulty for those of us that prefer more of a challenge. Options are always a good thing.

this can be simplified really easy. it seems everyone's looking at tourney scores and basing their judgment on that. so make the tourneys more skill rating based. instead of going from 0 to whatever, make it progressive. in other words, 0 - 399,beginner, 400 - 799,amateur, 800- 1199, pro, and 1200 - 1600, tour pro.

in my view, this is why you see the same names at the top of every tourney. it's called cherry-picking. the expert players wouldn't have no eligibility to play the lower tourneys.

why everyone is blaming this on the swing styles is amazing to me. i've played 3 click in all the other tw pc games, from '06 to '08, and did quite nicely at it. but here, the inconsistency with it, from lags, is impossible to master. so i had to learn true swing. which i hated in all previous tw versions. true swing is all reflex. like david feherty would say on the putts- "pull it straight back, and let it go straight through". good advice. so if you mis-hit it, it's your fault, not the game's fault.

it would be nice to play 3 click, but here it will never happen. not a knock at ea, but lag was rare on the disc versions. in all levels, from novice through advanced. it was all skill on the player, all hand-eye coordination reflex response. and that was on both a very fast puter, and on a dinosaur puter.

my point is this: to level out the playing field, make it fair for all players. it amazes me to see players who have 90 rounds played, when i play four hours a night and can only manage 30 rounds in the same time frame. it's obvious that some of these players have a) someone at the keyboard padding the stats and the swing trainer bank account, or b) has all day, every day, to play the game. more power to those players. must be nice...

don't blame the game itself. it has nothing to do with the game. this game plays very nice, and the glitches will be fixed in due time- keeping in mind, it is a beta test. if anyone doesn't think this beta plays good, go try the other ones out there in internet la-la land. i won't mention them here, but they don't compare to this game. this game holds your attention. the other ones out there are a joke.

don't change a thing with the swing mechanics, ea. just adjust the tourneys to suit everyone's playing skill levels. and go to the central lobby location setup for players to decide for themselves what tourneys they wish to play in.

cem_ea_id.stvn6165 wrote:don't change a thing with the swing mechanics, ea. just adjust the tourneys to suit everyone's playing skill levels. and go to the central lobby location setup for players to decide for themselves what tourneys they wish to play in.

So those who want a more challenging swing interface should just accept the current game as is? Can't say I agree with that at all since this game is easier than TW08 for PC....this game should move the franchise forward in terms of gameplay, not backwards, IMO....

MAIN.EAcom Golf Tim wrote:

cem_ea_id.stvn6165 wrote:don't change a thing with the swing mechanics, ea. just adjust the tourneys to suit everyone's playing skill levels. and go to the central lobby location setup for players to decide for themselves what tourneys they wish to play in.

So those who want a more challenging swing interface should just accept the current game as is? Can't say I agree with that at all since this game is easier than TW08 for PC....this game should move the franchise forward in terms of gameplay, not backwards, IMO....

Agreed, I want to see realistic scoring, not split scoring.

Handicap System would help too. I don't care if people use the putting grid or putt previews big deal give me a true handicap so that if I'm shooting -25 then i have a +25 handicap. So that if I start playing in a tournaments and have to shoot -25 to get to even.

Base total handicap on game settings so for example I shoot -10 with no helps that would be ranked higher then shooting -25 with all the helps in the world. either way i'd have the +10 or +25 that would require me to get back to even par. Just levels the field for all. Some days you would have a great round that you might end up at an under par round but you would have to earn it.

Example I shoot the scores of 66, 70, 60, 68 those four rounds average are 66. so if par was 72 then I have a +6 handicap. It I walk up to a tee for a tournament round then i must shoot a -6 to get to even par. Add a slope index that would account for what tee is used, speed of fairways or greens, etc. Cause shooting a even par from the front tees isn't the same as shooting even from the back tees or using different pins.

I agree with AuroraGolfNut...

... I wont go long on here, but in other threads (tournament I think) ive posted that I think whats really missing here is a handicap system.

The way the tournament breakdowns are now wont cut it --- and I think EA is aware of that. So my guess is we shouldnt be all that worried it'll be the same when it goes live to the world as to where its at now.

There should be a "floor" as well as a "ceiling" with the tournaments though. The points rating thats there right now for the tournaments SEEMS to be a step in the right direction, but if its not implemented well (which I dont think it is currently -- and clearly im not alone on this). My hope is that this will be improved upon.

The swing isnt the "thing" thats holding this game back. Its how to breakdown the skills of the golfer that are playing in a way that is fair and competitive for all those who are playing. If that were done better (and in fairness, im sure it will -- but to what degree) the game itself will be better and more enjoyable to most the players.

Simple:

1. Remove PUTT PREVIEW....its a "cheat"....doesnt exist in real life golf nor should it in exist in any attempt to develop a realistic golf simulation. 15 putt previews can easily change a respectable 72 into a totally unrealistic 57!!

2. Remove the opportunity to not finish a round because you dont like the way it is going....with a bad start you can quit and start over which makes your averages look better than they should.

3. Variable winds even after you hit the shot....in real life golf the wind does not lock in one direction and speed just because the ball has left the tee or ground.

4. Make the ball bigger than the hole...lol

These are the same suggestions that I made after Beta 3..if I could ever get invited again to your little beta parties, I could make some specific suggestions to the newer versions.

great post Aurora. surprised this wasn't done from the start. but maybe they will finish with it

the different levels for tournaments are only for people who play tournaments , sounds funny i know but it doesn't take into account the people who have played 50 rounds got all there skills up and are shooting low 50's , they then decide they want to play a tournament so they can start at beginners, even though they can shoot -20, there needs to be a way that these players are stopped from playing the easy tournaments, using average scores is a good way but that can be manipulated also , so i think it would have to be a mix of all there stats , rounds etc to get a level for each player where they can compete fairly.

cem_ea_id.Spikel14 wrote:

MAIN.EAcom Golf Tim wrote:

cem_ea_id.stvn6165 wrote:don't change a thing with the swing mechanics, ea. just adjust the tourneys to suit everyone's playing skill levels. and go to the central lobby location setup for players to decide for themselves what tourneys they wish to play in.

So those who want a more challenging swing interface should just accept the current game as is? Can't say I agree with that at all since this game is easier than TW08 for PC....this game should move the franchise forward in terms of gameplay, not backwards, IMO....

Agreed, I want to see realistic scoring, not split scoring.

my first question, tim, is this: why can't all of us players, being beta, tw08,07, etc., agree on a universal swing system?

tim, in a previous post, you told me to check out what system that you run this beta in, in response to my forum post. which i did, and i was impressed. i'd kill to have half the system you got going. must make for great gaming...

true swing, or 3 click, it appears to me that if you have a superior computer system, your advantage against the field is much greater than those of us who have a standard no-frills system, at least in this beta form. the point i was trying to make was this: no matter what system you are running, the player should feel like he/she has somewhat of a chance to compete in the field of play, and be in contention, to keep that player's interest in the game. that was what was nice about the previous tw pc games. your skill prevailed above technology. and for the most part, you knew going into a match in tw08 that the skill level was pretty well matched up, or you didn't play. and it didn't matter what computer you were on. the game played consistent.

so, to change the game physics to make it more challenging might be good for the hardcore tw gamers, like myself, but it has to be frustrating for the average player who doesn't understand real golf's mechanics, which you need in any golf game, being pc, 360, ps3, etc.

and yes, this beta is easier than tw08 pc, but that doesn't justify the outrageous low scores being posted in these tourneys. how can you expect the average beta tester to join in the tourneys, only to see -20 in every tourney offered, when you know this has to discourage them from playing. and i thought the idea was to get more people to play the tourneys, not scare them away...

and to answer spike's response: you want realistic scoring? you must separate the skill levels to coincide with each tournament offered. to allow cherry picking is wrong. the skill rating system here does not allow it. to keep all players equal, the experts can't golf with beginners. and the tourney set up now encourages just that.

i don't consider myself a great player, here, or in the previous tw's platforms. but i still enter any tourney i can. just to see where i stack up against the other players out there. and competition is always a factor. but i can see how players get discouraged. why enter when you have a snowball's chance in hell to be in contention? yes, i'm progressing. but i have to admit, i keep shooting for the brass ring. and i'm hard headed, which don't help. but how many people get fed up, and say the heck with it, it's not worth the bother? just watch the chat in any game you're in. lots of people get discouraged quickly. and if those people don't stay interested, there goes a lot of potential subscribers. and if enough people aren't interested, this whole platform will be history. like past tense...

and auroragolfnut brings up a good point. why not incorporate a handicap system, if the tourney situation is going to stay as it is now? out of all the forum posts i've read for this beta, this seems to be the best answer to solve the low scoring dilemma. might be a little too late to incorporate now, though. something for the developers to think about for the future, no question about it...

Greg, I find the true swing version the most challenging and feel that you have it about spot on. Speeding up the 3 Click system might help. I am sure that there are those that can shoot rediculously low scores like a 39, but for me I feel that the TWO game truly represents the real game IMHO.

However, I play without using the putt preview and would suggest that you leave this out in future as apart from the help from a caddie in a pro event you have to make decisions in the real game without this help otherwise golf would be full of Tiger Woods.type players.

Previous posting recommend a handicap system for tournaments and I agree and that is something I have mentioned before to encourage more interest and fairness in Tournaments for those like myself playing on a low spec laptop of three years old.

Try playing with the highest settings when the wind blows at 26mph with long rough and lightning fast greens etc,etc, then I like to see those that score 39 try and repeat it!!!

A lot of you guys play in tournaments with handicap systems. I agree with that but what a can of worms you are opening up. Whatever system used to figure out a handicap that is fair someone will find fault with and then the forums turn into a place that no one wants to be. Been there and don't like it. I am one that would be fine with any type of handicap system, it is better then none, but I know that there are others that that will find fault in any system and won't stop complaining about it. That is their right but not fun to be around.

cem_ea_id.stvn6165 wrote:
tim, in a previous post, you told me to check out what system that you run this beta in, in response to my forum post. which i did, and i was impressed. i'd kill to have half the system you got going. must make for great gaming...

I also play on a much less powerful laptop and the game plays the same to me regardless of which system I am using. This will be the same for anyone else regardless of what system they are playing on.

cem_ea_id.stvn6165 wrote:true swing, or 3 click, it appears to me that if you have a superior computer system, your advantage against the field is much greater than those of us who have a standard no-frills system, at least in this beta form. the point i was trying to make was this: no matter what system you are running, the player should feel like he/she has somewhat of a chance to compete in the field of play, and be in contention, to keep that player's interest in the game. that was what was nice about the previous tw pc games. your skill prevailed above technology. and for the most part, you knew going into a match in tw08 that the skill level was pretty well matched up, or you didn't play. and it didn't matter what computer you were on. the game played consistent.

I do not believe for one minute that a more powerful system give any advantage to any other user. If the game is running correctly, then system specs are a non-issue. The bolded part of your comment is exactly what I am getting at by making the higher difficulty levels PLAY like higher difficulty levels. Right now, if I play an Amateur, Pro, or TOUR Pro tournament, they play EXACTLY the same with no skill differentiation needed. The ONLY difference is tee boxes, pin positions, and easier conditions on the Amateur and Pro tournaments in comparison to TOUR Pro. TOUR Pro should play like Expert in TW08 and right now it doesn't. The same should apply to the different difficulty levels in this game.

cem_ea_id.stvn6165 wrote:so, to change the game physics to make it more challenging might be good for the hardcore tw gamers, like myself, but it has to be frustrating for the average player who doesn't understand real golf's mechanics, which you need in any golf game, being pc, 360, ps3, etc.

This game, like the console versions is ALREADY good for the casual or mass market user. It is ridiculously easy to play. EA has been ignoring the hardcore simulation users in the console versions. I do NOT want to see that happen to the PC version because we have a history of having challenging gameplay. There is no reason EA can't give more users the kind of gameplay they want to play. The strategy of this game is to appeal to the widest audience possible to ensure its growth and success. Ignoring the hardcore simulation users is not going to help that strategy.

cem_ea_id.stvn6165 wrote:and yes, this beta is easier than tw08 pc, but that doesn't justify the outrageous low scores being posted in these tourneys. how can you expect the average beta tester to join in the tourneys, only to see -20 in every tourney offered, when you know this has to discourage them from playing. and i thought the idea was to get more people to play the tourneys, not scare them away...

If users are shooting -21 in TOUR Pro, then THAT difficulty level is too easy. I am a firm believer that if EA reduced the difficulty levels to 2 (Arcade/TOUR Pro Simulation), then they would be able to focus on just two levels of gameplay and not 4 to truly differentiate the styles of play. If a score is discouraging to a user before he/she starts the game and they feel they have no chance to compete, then they need to move down to a level they feel they can compete and practice to get good enough to feel competitive at the higher levels. This is Competition 101 here, not rocket science. It will also help a great deal when they get the skill ratings fixed to where users with higher skills are limited to tournaments that they should be playing (higher difficulty and challenge).

cem_ea_id.stvn6165 wrote:and to answer spike's response: you want realistic scoring? you must separate the skill levels to coincide with each tournament offered. to allow cherry picking is wrong. the skill rating system here does not allow it. to keep all players equal, the experts can't golf with beginners. and the tourney set up now encourages just that.

Agreed, this will help.

cem_ea_id.stvn6165 wrote:i don't consider myself a great player, here, or in the previous tw's platforms. but i still enter any tourney i can. just to see where i stack up against the other players out there. and competition is always a factor. but i can see how players get discouraged. why enter when you have a snowball's chance in hell to be in contention? yes, i'm progressing. but i have to admit, i keep shooting for the brass ring. and i'm hard headed, which don't help. but how many people get fed up, and say the heck with it, it's not worth the bother? just watch the chat in any game you're in. lots of people get discouraged quickly. and if those people don't stay interested, there goes a lot of potential subscribers. and if enough people aren't interested, this whole platform will be history. like past tense...

I think you are discounting a couple of things. One, I think many people will embrace the challenge of learning the game to play with the better players if they like the game itself. I can recall when I first started playing EA Sports PGA TOUR Gold and TW99 for PC. I was an average player at best, but I am competitive as can be. I played the games, sometimes to the dismay of my family, but I wanted to learn how to become one of the better players. So I asked to play along with those players and asked them how they got to where they are in the game. Within a year, I was competing at the highest level in TW99 and actually was fortunate enough to win the final EA Sports Internet TOUR which was an EA-sponsored tournament to see who the best players were.

The second thing is I believe there are MANY TW users who just want to sit down and play a round of Golf on their PC/Mac to escape for a while. The more interesting the game and the challenge, the more they are likely to spend time with TWO than other games.

cem_ea_id.stvn6165 wrote:and auroragolfnut brings up a good point. why not incorporate a handicap system, if the tourney situation is going to stay as it is now? out of all the forum posts i've read for this beta, this seems to be the best answer to solve the low scoring dilemma. might be a little too late to incorporate now, though. something for the developers to think about for the future, no question about it...

I am for a handicap system if it is done right and can keep sandbaggers from trying to circumvent the system. That will be up to EA to determine if it is doable with the current format....

At the end of the day, if the gameplay is properly tuned for each level of difficulty and the skill ratings are properly applied, then everything else is pretty much in place.

For me personally I find TWO far far too “arcade”, I'm useless with this 3-Click system, slice just about every shot, but I still manage scores around par for the 18 holes, how can this be possible? If I wanted a free arcade styled golf MMO then there is Pangya, I was hoping for something much more realistic. I personally find the game FAR too hard at the start but then ridiculously easy at the end, when you first jump into the game and have very low stats the game is horrifically punishing and made me want to just write it off as a load of rubbish and move onto a different golf game, but then as I build my stats it starts becoming so easy its stupid. It only took 2 rounds worth of earnings to get my stats to a point where it was stupid easy anyway. There's no feeling of progression, you just jump from bad to good.

My suggestions are:

1)Allow new players to play with “pre-set characters”, maybe even modelled after real pro's or members of your design team, so they can get a feel for the game and the controls with moderately good stats. This way its not too hard to get into and people can get used to it with no problems and then when they are happy with the system can go and start a new golfer from scratch, of course I don't suggest letting them earn anything with these pre-set characters, well maybe a “been there, done that” T-Shirt for fun.

2)Remove the Putting Preview... who the hell came up with that anyway?

3)Make stats a little less important, please, I went from putting at 10% and roughly 4 putt attempts per hole, to putting stats at 25% (which cost only 1 rounds earnings) and suddenly jumped to 1 putt attempt per hole or maybe 2 if I really screwed up.

4)Putting needs working on... I feel the physics are really off on the greens... putting a under 1 inch uphill shot, holes at 55% my swing... my screen gets a few second lag causing me to hit it at 85% power by accident but still managed a perfect 3rd click... and it still falls short by a good distance... something is horribly wrong there, either its because the green grid didnt read right or physics went hay-wire, but something is wrong and needs some revision.

5)Having played over 40 different Cash-Shop (or Micro-Transaction if you will) games during my course as a game reviewer I know that what keeps players in their games is often more to do with what fun can be had on the side rather then the main game, at the moment TWO is a very simple one sided game, you get bored of the standard golf stuff then you leave the game and go play something else... you don't want that. how about some extra fun? Maybe a Mini-Golf course where players can chill out and socialise, this will actually make character customisation worth-while, meaning more micro transactions for you. Or better yet a Golf Fair Ground kinda like a Carnival where you can spend your hard earned $ on fun golf-based mini games. This way you can put all the Arcade Game-Play you seem to want so badly into a place where it actually feels appropriate and wont effect people who want a standard golf simulation.

anyway, apart from thouse gripes i do still think TWO is a well developed game for a closed beta, i just hope you get it right in the end and come out with a Tiger Woods game that sets the bar for future golf games.

A number of excellent points made in this thread. I'll post mine as soon as I get my thoughts/ideas in order. Till then just a bump.

Maverick