Need for Speed Racing Games

I did a example run at 1:32.768. To reduce car wander, I set caster to 6.00 and rear toe to -1.00. To reduce oversteer, I lowered rear sway bar one click and set differential accleration to 80.00. To reduce bouncing, I set all damper values to middle settings. I only used 4th 5th and 6th gears. All asists were off, inclucing autoclutch (the game doesn't require clutch to shift gears). I downshift while at full throttle before braking in every turn, most noticable just before the corkscrew (hidden enging braking assist). I'm not sure how best to take the corkscrew, so I'm a bit conservative there. In most turns, I'm partial throttle until about mid-turn, then transition to full throttle once at the corner apex (hidden traction cotnrol assist).

Setup info:
tires: 30.00 30.00 63.00 alignment: 25.00 6.00 -0.10 -1.00 -1.50 -1.00 75.00 85.00 suspension: 285.52 114.21, springs far left, stops far left, dampers middle differntial: 80.00 50.00 60.00 gear: 5.29 2.95 2.42 2.05 1.45 1.18 0.97 aero: 15.00 15.00 1.00 4.00

Link to video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bznKMGK0Ns&fmt=22

MAIN.rcgldr wrote:I don't recall any mention of using pro mode in the original post, just turning off assists.

Well I figured (hidden figures - I dunno what this hidden stuff is about, but I'll play along) (correctly as it turned out) that the probability was high that, someone naive to how the fast racers in this game get their times, will be using either experienced or pro.

Why? Simply because of where this choice is made in the career mode of the game (hidden career mode)...and what it usually recommends.

TBH the large number using normal to get a fast time did surprise me (hidden surprise)

Because in most other racing games there's usually the exact reverse. A snobbishness or elitism amongst the fastest drivers about the fact they get their times without using assists or any modes other than "pro"

But I guess that's what happens when a game has one foot in the sim world from SMS's roots, and another in the arcade world from NFS's. (hidden feet)

The only differences I'm aware of are the grip multiplier and center of gravity multiplier which in order are:

Well this is a little disingenuous. Yes, ok, use "only" if you're talking about the number of changes perhaps, but the differences themselves are what matters and they make a big difference. I linked to the lap times.

Based on videos of game play and how the assists help some players, I suspect the game play of NFS Shift isn't the same on alll PC's (hardware, OS, controller, ....), so some players have an advantage just because of their system or controller.

Well this sounds like hogwash (hidden hogwash)

I think it would be fairly trivial to prove that, given all the possible variations of input, that the same driver isn't going to do the exact same lap twice on the same system.

If you got these 2 different computer systems, one of which you allege gives an advantage, and used the same driver to try and compare (hidden compare) you might struggle to get a valid comparison because of the above.

To then suggest by watching 2 completely different drivers on youtube you can see one computer system has an advantage is bordering on laughable (hidden raucous laughter)

cem_ea_id.bandola54 wrote:

xbox.Needaxeo wrote:

cem_ea_id.bandola54 wrote:
Ok, I've rebooted. It's harder handling the car in normal mode than in experienced or pro. The car is all over the place in normal mode.

Doesn't normal mode enable low steering and braking assists by default? Switch those both off if so.

Yes, and I switched them off. It also changed my gears to auto and I switched them back to manual. I thought the car was going to be easy to handle but it was even more all over the place than it is as experienced mode, and that's all over the place as well but I'm getting used to it now, lol.

Well the numbers won't lie. Compare your lap times, rather than relying on your subjective feel.

(although it might sound paradoxical if you're losing control all the time, you'll probably be quicker if you slow down)

The key thing at the corner is exit speed. Not entry speed, nor how good you are at countersteering (or how forgiving the game is)

But this is really where these "pro" or "normal" and so on do matter and another reason why I mentioned them.

You see, if you google driving then, on sim sites, or on real driving / racing sites you'll find plenty of posts and articles talking about "slow in / fast out" and bunch of stuff talking about using the whole width of the track, choosing braking points, taking the right apex, getting back on the throttle progressively, driving as smoothly as you can etc etc.

OTOH, you can watch a video of a guy driving in NFS shift with the handling on normal and you can say "Well, hmm, does any of that driving 101 stuff still apply? Does the game reward smooth driving? Do I need to brake?" - if you think it does, then those are the kind of things are what you need to do. It's not your A B C of countersteering or adjusting your wheel, but it's about driving smoothly, exiting the corners fast, not entering them fast and so on.

But if you don't, perhaps you'll conclude that your choice of mode dictates your approach to the driving in the game...

There are a few other settings that seem to follow the same (casual, normal, experienced, pro) format in the chassis definition files and elsewhere. Haven't played with them much yet, but certainly looks like that normal/casual/experienced get some other throttle/brake control assists on top of the physicstweaker values.

cem_ea_id.teeheeaid wrote:There are a few other settings that seem to follow the same (casual, normal, experienced, pro) format in the chassis definition files and elsewhere. Haven't played with them much yet, but certainly looks like that normal/casual/experienced get some other throttle/brake control assists on top of the physicstweaker values.

Hidden changes perchance?

MAIN.rcgldr wrote:I did a example run at 1:32.768. To reduce car wander, I set caster to 6.00 and rear toe to -1.00. To reduce oversteer, I lowered rear sway bar one click and set differential accleration to 80.00. To reduce bouncing, I set all damper values to middle settings. I only used 4th 5th and 6th gears. All asists were off, inclucing autoclutch (the game doesn't require clutch to shift gears). I downshift while at full throttle before braking in every turn, most nosticable just before the corkscrew (hidden enging braking assist). I'm not sure how best to take the corkscrew, so I'm a bit conservative there. In most turns, I'm partial throttle until about mid-turn, then transition to full throttle once at the corner apex (hidden traction cotnrol assist).

Setup info:
tires: 30.00 30.00 63.00 alignment: 25.00 6.00 -0.10 -1.00 -1.50 -1.00 75.00 85.00 suspension: 285.52 114.21, springs far left, stops far left, dampers middle differntial: 80.00 50.00 60.00 gear: 5.29 2.95 2.42 2.05 1.45 1.18 0.97 aero: 15.00 15.00 1.00 4.00

Link to video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bznKMGK0Ns&fmt=22

Nicely driven man and good time! You handled that corkscrew very well. It always ruins my lap time, but I'm improving on it, slowly but surely. I'm still trying to get that smoothness around the track, but getting used to no assists is still a work in progress. You drive the track almost identically to this guy who is leading our time attack contest. I think I'll try your downshifting while at full throttle before braking.

These are his settings, which are also the ones I've been using, but I may change to all or some of your settings to see what happens. Here's his video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYJO892d3Nw&feature=player_embedded
He's done it in 1:30 before. Do you think this track can be done under 1:30 in this car or do you reckon that's the limit?

xbox.Needaxeo wrote:

Well the numbers won't lie. Compare your lap times, rather than relying on your subjective feel.

(although it might sound paradoxical if you're losing control all the time, you'll probably be quicker if you slow down)

I think you're right. I think I'm trying too hard. Whenever I've relaxed my grip on the wheel and tried to stay more calm, I seem to do a bit better. The learning curve is really steep isn't it!

cem_ea_id.bandola54 wrote:

xbox.Needaxeo wrote:

Well the numbers won't lie. Compare your lap times, rather than relying on your subjective feel.

(although it might sound paradoxical if you're losing control all the time, you'll probably be quicker if you slow down)

I think you're right. I think I'm trying too hard. Whenever I've relaxed my grip on the wheel and tried to stay more calm, I seem to do a bit better. The learning curve is really steep isn't it!

Oh. folk are reading in real time See edit, I added some more stuff...

xbox.Needaxeo wrote:

cem_ea_id.bandola54 wrote:

xbox.Needaxeo wrote:

Well the numbers won't lie. Compare your lap times, rather than relying on your subjective feel.

(although it might sound paradoxical if you're losing control all the time, you'll probably be quicker if you slow down)

I think you're right. I think I'm trying too hard. Whenever I've relaxed my grip on the wheel and tried to stay more calm, I seem to do a bit better. The learning curve is really steep isn't it!

Oh. folk are reading in real time See edit, I added some more stuff...

Ah sorry, I posted too soon. I must go to sleep now, but yeah, I need to go slow in and fast out on corners. I keep thinking that if I'm too slow going in that I'll lengthen my lap time instead of reducing it. On the other hand, I suppose if slower means better control and not slip sliding around, I'll get a better and faster exit and perhaps get a better lap time. Appreciate all the cool advice you guys are giving me. See you tomorrow.

slow in, fast out

Depends on the car. Fast in, get the car sideways, and drift through turns is what works with the Zonda R in NFS Shift. Possibly because of the hiddent traction control assist, for a fast lap, you're at full throttle from turn 1 exit all through way through and past turn 2 at Willow Springs, with just steering inputs to control how the Zonda R drifts through the turn. In turn 9, the final turn, the throttle is eased off to allow the car to scrub off speed, but it's back to full throttle well before reaching the apex of the turn. The fourth link below is to a video of Willow Springs, demonstrating this. As stated in this real world video about formula 1 car, "just the g forces working on the car, to reduce the revs, no hint of a lift of the throttle", about 15 seconds into this video:

http://rcgldr.net/real/spaf1.wmv

So because of what I think is a hidden traction control that is somewhat car dependent in NFS shift, some key turns at Willow Springs end up being power limited as opposed to grip limited, so you take them flat out.

MAIN.rcgldr wrote:Based on videos of game play and how the assists help some players, I suspect the game play of NFS Shift isn't the same on alll PC's (hardware, OS, controller, ....), so some players have an advantage just because of their system or controller.

xbox.Needaxeo wrote:Well this sounds like hogwash

The most obvious differences are the amount of bouncing of cars in the game. Setup could explain difference in acceleratin or grip, but nothing explains the lack of bouncing in this video. It's like a different game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKzEv1MFpFo&fmt=18

In this very old video of a standing start 6:05.690 run at Norschleife in an untuned works Z06 by Anak (ardathrokok), the bouncing is a bit less than it is on most player's systems. It's not the setup, because it's a default setup. I think this video was made before any of the patches (1.01, 1.02).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNaEPUnxs68&fmt=18

Having a bit more grip is a bit harder to detect, a 1:05.774 time attack (which may be faster than race mode) lap at Willow Springs. zx12rcr mentioned that his normal best lap times are high 1:06.xx, but one out of every 30 to 40 laps he get's 1:05.xx, without any noticable difference in the feel of the car, so there may be some sort of "grip" bug. Another player, Cipriani, who ran a fluke 5:55.xxx at Norschleife in the Maserati in career mode, mentioned that his cornering speeds were about 10kph or so faster than normal for that car, another example of the somewhat mysterious "grip" bug.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbywBxTFoQU&fmt=22

Rather than hijack this thread, you can read more about this here:
http://isrc2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=nfss&action=display&thread=507

or start up a new thread about this at EA Forums.

Getting back to the original post, I'm not sure if a sub 1:30 is possible. If so, it would proably take dozens of laps and tweaking of the setup to eek out that last bit of time from a lap for just a single car and track combination, which is something I haven't done since 2003 with Grand Prix Legends.

Hey rcgldr, I noticed that the sound of your engine warbles at a higher pitch the moment after you've upshifed a gear, just as the needle flickers at '8' on the rev counter. I figured out why mine wasn't making that sound, it's because I was set to auto clutch. Now I've turned auto clutch off and my car makes the same sound. I also can do that skid launch now right at the start of the time trial, ie, the same as that guy does in the video I posted. I couldn't do that with auto clutch. Other than that, is there any benefit in me turning auto clutch off, or in fact, would it slow me down? I don't have a clutch pedal, only brake and gas.

Edit: Actually, either it's better with auto clutch off or my driving is just improving. After many hours of trying to get it right, I FINALLY got below 1:35. Not too shabby for less than 2 weeks at playing this game I suppose. Wow. this is really challenging me, but it's great fun.

http://f.imagehost.org/0621/Laguna4.jpg

cem_ea_id.bandola54 wrote:is there any benefit in me turning auto clutch off

Other than faster launches, I'm not sure. If you look at my video again, you will see a small but rapid speed increase on each gear shift with auto-clutch off. With auto-clutch on, you may end up with a bit larger increase in speed, but over a longer period of time. The main advantage is the launch speed for online play.

MAIN.rcgldr wrote:

slow in, fast out

Depends on the car. Fast in, get the car sideways, and drift through turns is what works with the Zonda R in NFS Shift. Possibly because of...

Yes, you can write a game, that increases the grip levels and changes other parameters in easier modes, until driving 101 advice no longer applies.

Here we have a game that seems to give you a choice. That's the choice I said the OP had to make.

But, to me personally, anything said about how the cars handle in the game is pretty moot if you aren't talking about pro mode. But perhaps that's just me. As I said, if they'd done a good separation between them, it wouldn't matter, but as it stands now, it's game breaking from the pov of doing these hotlap challenges and the leaderboards.

Yes, you really aren't playing the same version of the game. But it's not hidden or secret or buggy or because you have a HD4850 or a 8880GT or a particular wheel or pad. It's a simple menu option that you first choose at the end of the first lap and can change later in the options menu)

If someone selects pro mode or doesn't look for glitches in the game, they aren't likely to beat the times of folks who do, and probably won't learn much from watching them driving in the game either

I think you have noticed that too. It's just that you think the game is different for these other folks because of their computer rather than because of the way they are playing it.

It's a game, not real life, so yeah, it'll not only brake differently, it'll break differently too

The game's physics guy has stated there are no hidden assists and nothing beyond filtering for keyboard / pad controllers, between you and the physics once you switch off the anything-but-hidden assists.

Are you aware of that interview? If so, to me that suggests you're repeatedly saying he is either deliberate deceiving us or ignorant about his own game.

But, perhaps you are simply unaware of the interview. For anyone that did read it though, it takes away a lot of credibility from what you say when you keep typing (hidden braking or whatever) in brackets in every post.

I think he said something like "we're pretty clean on a wheel" which is slightly more ambiguous. I think as with a lot of things there's what the physics engine says (eg so many newton metres / radian at such and such a speed with a certain setup) and then there's what their race drivers told them during testing, and I think they were very clear that the latter would always override the former when it came down to building "driving experience".

This also leaves open the prospect of them not being clean on the clutch/brake/accelerator

That said I don't know why people expect to drive cars with an open differential, I think they would find they want that "hidden tcs" lsd back pretty quick...

cem_ea_id.bandola54 wrote:

xbox.Needaxeo wrote:

cem_ea_id.bandola54 wrote:

xbox.Needaxeo wrote:

Well the numbers won't lie. Compare your lap times, rather than relying on your subjective feel.

(although it might sound paradoxical if you're losing control all the time, you'll probably be quicker if you slow down)

I think you're right. I think I'm trying too hard. Whenever I've relaxed my grip on the wheel and tried to stay more calm, I seem to do a bit better. The learning curve is really steep isn't it!

Oh. folk are reading in real time See edit, I added some more stuff...

Ah sorry, I posted too soon. I must go to sleep now, but yeah, I need to go slow in and fast out on corners. I keep thinking that if I'm too slow going in that I'll lengthen my lap time instead of reducing it. On the other hand, I suppose if slower means better control and not slip sliding around, I'll get a better and faster exit and perhaps get a better lap time. Appreciate all the cool advice you guys are giving me. See you tomorrow.

Yeah, you don't want to grip the wheel hard, it's not about fighting the car. You want to be as relaxed and calm as you can be. Make sure you don't stop breathing too.

I would switch off the green helper line as well.

Take "slow" with a pinch of salt. As slow as you need to be, so you can control through the corner and exit as fast as possible, using the whole width of the track for that exit.

When you see driving 101 videos they'll show you, the difference of being only slightly away from the edge of the track on corner entry, can alter your exit speed, maybe only by a couple of mph, but down a long straight that will make a big difference.

A much bigger difference than braking late will make.

So, when you watch your replay, check your line, and check your speeds too. This is what makes you faster. Otherwise you can just do lap after lap after lap and one will be faster, one slower and you won't know why.

(The client at wrecord.com has some telemetry apparently, it might have exit speeds on it, you can always check)

Similarly, if you don't let the car go to the outside of the track, if you're fighting the car, you're just slowing yourself down. Jackie Stewart talks about it being out of control, once you're committed to the corner you more or less slide out of it. You'll know it when it happens in this game. Too fast and you'll leave the track. Too slow and won't feel on the edge. If the corner felt easy, you were probably too slow.

If you think you're going too fast, and the car is going to leave the track, but, without having to lift the throttle, it doesn't, it just goes to the very outside, accelerating (i.e you're not skimming off speed and limping out the corner) you were probably spot on. You'll know it when you do it.

Although as you get faster you have to take into account the lap as a whole, sometimes you don't max one corner so you're better set up for the next...you want to get smooth. So the increase and decrease of speed as you go around the lap is one continuous smooth motion.

It's like playing a piece of music, you don't play bar 1, then bar 2, then bar 3. You play the piece smoothly from bar to bar. When you're learning the track you might think of it as corner 1 "brake here, turn here, power here, straighten here", corner 2 "break here...", but make sure you don't make it disjoint like that, you want to switch from each activity as smoothly as you can...and that will mean you unsettle the car less and can be faster.

The thing is, most of your lap time isn't about how late you brake. It's about driving smoothly and fast exits. Late braking, when the rest of the lap is spot on, will give you the final few tenths, but whilst you're still learning it just stymies you from being in control. When your time isn't fast, if you brake even later still hoping to be quicker, it's counter productive.

If you brake earlier, but slow to the same speed as someone who brakes late, you won't be that far behind them. And you'll have a far better chance of being as quick as them through the corner and getting the fast lap together.

So, I would start by braking early, perhaps way too early, but don't slow down more, just make the braking gentle and progressive, and, when you've got the whole lap where you're confidently traversing every corner smoothly, then see how late you can leave the braking or what tricks you can pull by glitching the physics engine.

But, as I've said, that's the choice I say you have. You can see much of what I've written above is in complete contrast to the other advice. Do you want to drive? In which case, get the others at your site to agree, use pro mode, and think about driving smoothly and so on and see how it goes.

Do you want to get a fast time in a video game? In which case, switch to normal mode and rcglr has all the videos and info to tell you how the kids get the fastest lap times possible out of the game with whatever glitches and tricks they've found work.

Both methods need you to use the controls well though. Which is why I would say you'll still need to go slow before you can go fast.

e.g your 1:35, we've seen a 1:31, so that's 4 seconds. Imagine that the guy who drives right on the edge and gets 1:30. He should be able to drive a 1:35 without the car being that close to the limit. If you are really gunning it and getting 1:35, you're clearly doing something wrong.

The bigger the difference, the bigger that effect should be. So when you were 1:39, you should have looked like you were driving to Tesco. If you felt out of control and it felt like it was fast, and so on, clearly you were doing something wrong.

The problem often is, you reach a point where when you try to drive smoothly, you think that means "slow" and you slow too much and get 1:36. If you go for it, you get 1:34, say, so you think "well I really, really need to go for it then" and then lose control and get 1:36 again.

You don't get past the 1:34. This is why you need to heed those exit speeds and critically look at your replay. If you can watch another guy's replay and see the speedo, at each corner

- Where did he brake.
- What speed did he slow to?
- What was his exit speed?

Compare with yours, then you'll probably see where you lose speed (you might even be quicker in some parts)

But, the game isn't really helpful here. Thanks to the cockpit blurring and the fact that many replays won't even be from the cockpit, and the lack of hud on replays, you often can't see how fast the other guy is.

But at least you can compare your own times, with the client from wrecord.com (I think you can anyway, you'll have to check) If not, use the cockpit view to watch back.

Thing is, if you don't know where you're losing the time, all you will try to do is get 3 seconds on every corner, and make yourself slower - you might be doing half the lap better than the guy you're trying to beat...