The Masters

ps3.Gcthunder wrote:It would be great to create a system where forgiveness doesn't increase, but the tools you have available get better.

I agree. I personally would prefer the choice to play without any sort of attributes system. Let me set my ability level while creating my character, and then allow me to play a Tour season as that character.

As for tools: When I play TW 10, I don't use the hole flyby or shot target features. I find they give me too much info, and I want to know I have a real chance of hitting the rough or a hazard once in a while. But those are two examples of in-game tools that, while assisting with one's accuracy, don't provide accuracy attribute boosts.

Maybe one aspect of the accuracy attribute could be to allow the user only gradual access to those tools. Another such tool would be a caddy book that gives a detailed overview of the course, along with green elevations and breaks. That could be something for those who play without the green grid. And perhaps there should be a caddy attribute tied to that -- the more you win on Tour, the better the caddy you can afford, and therefore the more indepth the info you have access to.

*From other Ea sports games, there tends to be a "player persona" as in the NHL series.

The first thing would be to select the type of golfer you are on the course. maybe a aggressive power hitter but doesn't have much skill on the greens. just one example.

I always classify myself when playing golf on 4 types of play. driver/woods, irons, short game, and putting. I feel that those are the main focus when playing during a round. As a young golfer it always comes down to nerves and how making a bad shot can make you even extremely nervous about hitting another tee shot, long iron, or 5 ft putt even.

if you broke down the skills into those categories with each having its own nerve level not something that can be controlled as a skill level but on your level of play. hitting more solid shots builds your confidence and can be controlled over the years and turning into a more mature player, but like tom watson at the british open one shot can ruin a round as well.

Along with having the player persona could be picking a strong game and a weak game.

driver, fairway woods, irons, wedges, putting, ball striking or more could be added...

the feature i love in NHL is the be a pro mode. same thing could be said with PGA, giving your player an identity power, finesse, good ball striker, putting expert, recovery man sets you with skills for that preset character where you can edit very little from but can give you a good chance at scoring low.

i know this probably wouldn't be possible at this time, but having a lower tour nationwide be included and working your way through the ranks playing on easier courses and making a name for yourself to qualify for the tour. (not a player skill), but just thought if you can play your way through the ranks can increase your skills instead of going pro immediately.

cem_ea_id.baangus wrote:

ps3.Gcthunder wrote:It would be great to create a system where forgiveness doesn't increase, but the tools you have available get better.

I agree. I personally would prefer the choice to play without any sort of attributes system. Let me set my ability level while creating my character, and then allow me to play a Tour season as that character.

As for tools: When I play TW 10, I don't use the hole flyby or shot target features. I find they give me too much info, and I want to know I have a real chance of hitting the rough or a hazard once in a while. But those are two examples of in-game tools that, while assisting with one's accuracy, don't provide accuracy attribute boosts.

Maybe one aspect of the accuracy attribute could be to allow the user only gradual access to those tools. Another such tool would be a caddy book that gives a detailed overview of the course, along with green elevations and breaks. That could be something for those who play without the green grid. And perhaps there should be a caddy attribute tied to that -- the more you win on Tour, the better the caddy you can afford, and therefore the more indepth the info you have access to.

I originally thought that putting was the only application for this but you just helped me realize that this is not the case.

The big difference between pros and amateurs is that pros just see the course differently. They intentionally land the ball on specific spots on the green where they know the ball will react a certain way. Amateurs just try to get the ball on the green or as close to the flag as possible. Pros try to land the ball in a specific part of the fairway, while amateurs just aim for the fairway (maybe left side vs. right side) and out of the woods. The tools EA provides us with allow us to make pro style decisions from the get go. So maybe every tool needs to come under the microscope even more so than the attributes. So a 8 in driver accuracy can aim for a specific part of the fairway, while a 3 can just aim for the fairway.

This is kind of how it is designed right now, where your aiming circle shrinks as you get better. But maybe the aiming circle should even be around or be much larger at lower attribute levels. You should have to earn it, at least on tour pro. You can also make it so that the best golfers get to see a green grid on their approach shot so that they can account for ball movement once the ball touches down.

ps3.Gcthunder wrote:Mental Game Attributes: Golf is a mental game and a physical one. I feel that in the past the TW has done a good job addressing the physical side but could do more on the mental side. There are a number of ways you can accomplish this, from visual effects (like the shaking camera), shaking controls, larger landing areas, etc. So you start with little confidence and have to build it up through risk taking and good decisions in rounds. Also, if you are performing poorly in a round, you should see dynamic changes in confidence affecting all your shots until you can turn it around (just like in real golf).

ps3.Gcthunder wrote:It would be great to create a system where forgiveness doesn't increase, but the tools you have available get better.

Regarding mental attributes, I would prefer the developers take the second approach GcThunder outlines above -- a mental attribute tool, as opposed to accuracy or distance penalties that affect the player's ability to finish the round. I wouldn't want to see my golfer lose the ability to hit the ball properly over the course of a round, simply because he's mentally off his game. If it's implimented well, fine. But the idea of "player confidence" has been tried in other games, and always to the detriment of the gameplay IMO.

I could see implimenting a mental attribute that affects accuracy and distance over the long course of the Tour season. Say my golfer has a poor round or tournament. My attributes then take a small hit, which increases the challenge when competing in the next round or next tourney. I believe that's how the attribute system works now. But it seems to me that once a golfer gains the ability to, say, hit the ball 300 yards, he should never suffer a loss to his distance attribute due to his shrinking driving distance average. He should lose the ability to consistently hit the ball 300 yards due to his loss of focus and his mental attribute dropping.

As for tools, perhaps it is possible to design some sort of "in the zone" view of the hole from the golfer's perspective, one that provides the golfer with ever-increasing access to vital course info. The clearer the mental game, the clearer the golfer's ability to see the proper approach spots, the hazards that need to be avoided, the breaks in the green, etc.

I would suggest announcers/commentators for this game but I wouldn't make it a real high priority.

Announcers that don't insult the player would be appreciated although every EA Sports game that I have ever played does this. Examples of bad commentary from TW10 include "That's some of the worst putting I have ever seen". This usually comes up after you miss a 60 foot putt. I have learned to turn down the sound so that I am not tempted to curse at the announcer. Van Pelt is not bad on commentary. It is just the annoying way in which his commentary was programmed into the game.

I think that TW11 team needs to take some lessons from Tiger Woods Online for how to make a mode that is addictive to play and has great replay value. I won't comment too much further since I don't want to violate the secrecy agreement or whatever. There are lessons that can be learned from that experience.

cem_ea_id.baangus wrote:
Regarding mental attributes, I would prefer the developers take the second approach GcThunder outlines above -- a mental attribute tool, as opposed to accuracy or distance penalties that affect the player's ability to finish the round. I wouldn't want to see my golfer lose the ability to hit the ball properly over the course of a round, simply because he's mentally off his game. If it's implimented well, fine. But the idea of "player confidence" has been tried in other games, and always to the detriment of the gameplay IMO.

I see your point. If not fully thought through or implemented correctly mental toughness can make a game frustrating and deter from the replay value. I just think that one of the big qualities that is lacking in the TW series (when playing offline) that you have in Madden, NCAA FB, etc. is that sense of nerves. That everything is on the line with one putt, or one approach. Part of me wants to see the game play off your emotions. It would be frustrating and unfair if the game set you up for failure when you need success the most, but it could cut down the forgiveness and margin for error to force you to really make a good stroke or club decision.

That said, your idea about adding access to tools as your confidence increases can help. When you think about failure in pressure situations, it can come because you get too tense, break your routine, think too much into things, and/or forget to account for variables you normally would consider. So how do you figure those issues in to a mental game attribute?

cem_ea_id.aggiefan4life3 wrote:Announcers that don't insult the player would be appreciated although every EA Sports game that I have ever played does this.

I take it you have never heard Johnny Miller announce a golf tourney

ps3.Gcthunder wrote:When you think about failure in pressure situations, it can come because you get too tense, break your routine, think too much into things, and/or forget to account for variables you normally would consider. So how do you figure those issues in to a mental game attribute?

Truthfully, I have a hard time seeing how it can be implemented. I'd be concerned it would end up ruining the gameplay, in the same way giving up a couple of hits completely rattles your pitcher in MLB: The Show. It's just not very realistic IMO. Professional athletes don't fall apart at the first sign of adversity. They go into slumps over the course of days or weeks where they're not on their game for whatever reason -- no doubt because they're not there mentally so to speak.

I guess my view is the mental aspect has everything to do with me, the guy doing the aiming and pushing the controller stick. Like everyone else I'm sure, I can play a round in TW 10 and be in the zone, and maybe even break par. (Seriously, the game is that tough for me, thanks to the club tuning feature!) An hour or day later I'll play and shoot 82 because my focus isn't there in the same way. There's only so much we can expect these games to emulate as far as human behavior and ability goes. I'm not sure mental attributes even need to be part of the equation in video sports games, to be honest.

cem_ea_id.baangus wrote:Professional athletes don't fall apart at the first sign of adversity. They go into slumps over the course of days or weeks where they're not on their game for whatever reason -- no doubt because they're not there mentally so to speak.

That's the only thing I will disagree with. In golf especially, golfers have imploded during their final round and even their final hole when they carried substantial stroke leads. Take Jean Van de Veld during the Open at Carnoustie, or Phil at Winged Foot, or even Kenny Perry this year at Augusta. Pressure makes golfers pull drives and miss putts, and adrenaline makes them fly shots over the green. It even happens in other sports too. Jake Delhome's performance in the Carolina vs. Phoenix playoff game last year epitomizes falling apart at the first sign of adversity. And it can be argued by the looks of the season so far that it has had lasting affects on his confidence.

Not trying to argue the point, but I do believe that mental game is the most important part of golf. And in the same sense I agree that it may be impossible to develop a system to capture that. But on Tour Pro difficulty it may be the equalizer everyone is waiting for.

I can't tell you what announcers I have heard. I don't watch golf enough to remember. I know that I thought that David Ferghty and the other who was the long term announcer for Tiger Woods were the dumbest soundest combination based upon the way they were portrayed in the game. I actually heard them call a golf match and they sounded semi-smart which is the complete opposite the way they sounded in the game.

EA Sports needs to work on their commentary in all sports. It is not necessary to insult the user in the game and I hope that EA Sports stopping do it someday in all of their sports.

ps3.Gcthunder wrote:Jean Van de Veld

Ha-ha! Okay, you got me there. However, that's an extreme example IMO, and a bit like using Mike Tyson as an example of how boxing is all about biting peoples' ears.

The reason the mentality attribute (confidence) doesn't work in a game like The Show is because every pitcher gets ridiculously rattled after back-to-back hits, to the point where he'll need to come out in the first inning because you can't stop the CPU from teeing off on him. That shouldn't happen to every pitcher. Rookies and scrubs maybe. But the majority of pitchers should be able to collect themselves and get out of the inning. MLB pitchers getting yanked in the first inning is very rare.

And hitters go into prolonged slumps where they appear to lose more and more confidence each game. They have a bad day at the plate, then a worse day the next, and by the end of the week they're in a slump. How many times have you heard a baseball announcer mention how bad the player is slumping in relation to one at-bat versus the next? It's definitely more a game-by-game thing.

Similarly, imagine starting the first hole in a video golf game by knocking your drive in the deep rough. If the mentality attribute was as overdone as it is in The Show, your golfer would be lost in the trees by the third hole, and sending his caddy to the clubhouse for more golf balls by the fifth. My 11 year-old nephew would enjoy that and think it's cool. Me, not so much.

Guys...I really like the way the discussion is headed here. Alot of great in-depth feedback and ideas. Thanks for offering some more concepts on how to improve the putting attribute. I also like the path you guys are heading down with the mental side of the attributes and how to reflect that aspect of golf in the game. Lets keep this ball rolling.

cem_ea_id.baangus wrote:

ps3.Gcthunder wrote:Jean Van de Veld

Ha-ha! Okay, you got me there. However, that's an extreme example IMO, and a bit like using Mike Tyson as an example of how boxing is all about biting peoples' ears.

The reason the mentality attribute (confidence) doesn't work in a game like The Show is because every pitcher gets ridiculously rattled after back-to-back hits, to the point where he'll need to come out in the first inning because you can't stop the CPU from teeing off on him. That shouldn't happen to every pitcher. Rookies and scrubs maybe. But the majority of pitchers should be able to collect themselves and get out of the inning. MLB pitchers getting yanked in the first inning is very rare.

Yeah, I will admit I picked some extremes to frame my argument (I worked in PR for several years so it is an old habit). There are still plenty of examples in the golf world, most occurring when Tiger is in the hunt or in a final pairing.

Although I have not played "MLB: The Show" I do see where you are coming from and would be equally as unenthusiastic about a mental attribute in TW if I had seen it poorly applied in the past. I thought about this, and think there may be another way to do this without letting the game have any control over your fate. Bottom line, gamers don't want a game to mess with them on purpose. We want control.

EA already has the framework to address the mental side. The simplest thing they can do to force you to be more precise with your swing and pump up the difficulty a bit is adjust the "sweet spot" on all of your clubs to simulate mental pressure (note: I am saying sweet spot because that is the technical effect I am trying to describe. I know that in real golf sweet spots don't change mid round, but I couldn't find a better way to describe this). Here's how it would work:

If you make a poor shot, and it is the beginning of a round, nothing should really happen. If you continue to make poor shots (or land in the water or OB) your sweet spot on the next shot may be reduced by an appropriate level. Maybe 5-10%. Maybe more if the situation merits that. If you make a pure swing on the shot you will not see any change. If you are shaky there will be less forgiveness. When you get back on track or make a nice shot, the sweet spot will be readjusted to your original level. If you three putt a hole and end with a double bogey, your next tee shot will have a smaller sweet spot.

These changes in "sweet spot" should not affect power in the examples before. Nor should they affect workability, although I would argue that your ability to work the ball should be scaled back when you are under pressure.

The last example I will use is the Tom Watson effect. When you have a pressure shot into the final hole with everything on the line, not only should your sweet spot be reduced, but you should also have increased power (adrenaline). EA could simply pump up your power by 5-10% forcing you to scale back. They should acknowledge this with an Icon or something on the screen so it doesn't catch you by surprise.


All of the above should gradually be tapered back as you get better and your mental strength attribute gets larger. So if you are at Tiger's level, you won't really get rattled by anything. But when you are beginning you need to work through the adversity.

I still think there should be visual indicators of pressure to go along with the above. I know in NCAA Football they blurred receiver routes and had the "Ice the Kicker" feature. Both seemed to distract me just enough to effect the game but not feel unfair.

The best mentality system I recall in a game was in the PES soccer series. That game provided the user with a way to determine which team members were mentality and physically ready to play on any given day. The game tied in players' fatigue ratings with a system that also indicated how mentally ready each individual player was.

Perhaps Tour Mode could be expanded to include a personal profile that updates you on your golfer's physical and mental well-being before each tournament and even each round. The grind of being on the Tour -- travel, personal circumstances, etc. -- no doubt affects players' ability to remain focused from one tournament to the next. Attribute penalties/boosts for that particular round or tourney could be tied to a player's physical and mental well-being.

The thing is, you then have a clear idea of how your golfer is going to play that day. Attribute penalties/boosts are applied before teeing off and aren't constantly changing throughout the round. Perhaps your accuracy is off because you're mentally tired, or you're not able to drive the ball as far due to a sore wrist. The game challenge then is to take that into account and adjust your course management strategy. That's opposed to a system whereby attributes arbitrarily rise and fall during the round, leaving you with no real sense or understanding of your golfer's performance level at any particular moment.

Also from my own experience, if it happens that I'm not on my game, I usually struggle all day long. But that can turn around completely the next day. Which brings up a question for me: Should changes to one's attributes, and a mentality attribute in particular, be cumulative? Or should they fluctuate up and down, from round-to-round and tourney-to-tourney?

I've had TW 10 for about 2 months now and I love the game but there are a few things that need work. Since this discussion is about attributes I'll limit my comments to attributes.

Attributes should not limit your ability to drive the ball, I may not want to drive the ball 345yds everytime I tee off and if a real life golfer doesn't drive the ball 345yds everytime doesn't mean that their driver is now limited to driving the ball 325yds the next time that they play a round.

If the attributes are being used as a skill handicap to help beginners get better at playing and using the controller (LS for hitting the ball straight) this is fine but, attributes are more of a record of your skill and progress. As your skills at hitting the ball straight, your accuracy, short game, and putting increase the attributes skill handicaps should decrease. As a beginner starts purchasing and using more advanced clubs the attributes skill handicaps should start decreasing also. Don't get me wrong here I'm not saying that that skill levels should drop just the handicap assistance should decrease.

The same for when players move from beginner to amateur to pro the attributes skill handicap assistance should change also, for pro there should be no attributes skill handicap assistance.

Thanks for listening.

It could add to the game to have lie-specific attributes added. It seems to me that golfers all have different strengths and weaknesses as far as, say, hitting the ball out of sand versus out of the rough. I wonder if attributes such as distance and accuracy should be broken down into sub-catagories that would include power and accuracy attributes when shooting out of rough, out of sand, etc.

Along the same lines, the game would definitely benefit by making pitching and chipping much harder than it is. Many gaming forum members pointed out that people playing TW 10 online were chipping when on the green because it was much easier than the new putting system. I found pitching to be so simple that I had to create house rules -- I couldn't carry a PW because it allowed me to pitch from 60 yards away. I could only carry wedges that allowed me to pitch from 35 yards away or less.

I'm not a golf expert, but it seems to me that someone pitching from a lie in the sand should have a tougher time of it than a pitch shot of equal distance from the rough. And I'm sure there are ways to tweak the programming to mirror that. But again, another way might be to have pitching attributes which affect the golfer's ability to hit for distance and accuracy when hitting out of sand versus rough.