I'm also totally for a handicapping system. After playing on the Clambakers Tour for 4years it is fantastic if done right. Not only would this make for realistic scoring, but it would also allow beginners to play with experts.

cem_ea_id.EA_GregRinaldi wrote:I've noticed a lot of debate over the past few Betas about the level of challenge in TWO. Many players seem to feel as though the game is simply too easy (and some of the lowest scores seem to validate that).

So my question to you all is what do you think we can do as developers to make the game more challenging, avoid the crazy low-scores and yet still make it fun and competitive? This is something we've been struggling with because we want a game that is fun and easy to pick up and play, but yet provides an increasing level of challenge the more you play it.

Thoughts?

I like the idea of handicapping for tournaments, but I don't think that this is what Greg is asking about. I believe he is asking about making the game more challenging.

Let's face it, no matter how challenging the swing engine becomes or not, there will always be someone out there who will master it in some way or another.

I will not address the 3C method. Have not played it in years, so it is not my place to critique. Like sushi...I don't eat it, don't ask me how to make it better (try the oven ).

The most logical thing mentioned in this thread IMO is the institution of levels. As in previous incarnations of the TW PC series, give the easiest level all the bells and whistles, and give them more forgiveness for misshits no matter what method they use. As you go up a level, you lose use of certain aids AND the forgiveness for misshits decreases until you arrive at, I don't know, let's call it Expert level (now that's original), where you have zero aids and misshits ARE misshits.

Let's make Expert truly hard, harder than ever before, so hard that many of us pretenders playing TW08 PC on Expert level are forced to go down a lever to break par! Now THAT would be SIMply devine!

I already posted this in the Suggestions Section, but no harm in repeating, in case it wasn't noticed:-

There are plenty of instances in these forums about people wanting - in some cases demanding - that some aspect or other of game play is removed, because THEY think it makes things too easy.

Well how about this.

This game is web based so all our scores are known by the admins, including each players average score.

My suggestion is to have different levels depending on the players average score. At each level some of the playing aids are removed. From the lowest, where everything is enabled, until at the highest level, designed to catch the people that shoot in the 50's, there are no playing aids at all.

If this was implemented correctly, everyone could play in the same tournaments, but the screen presented to them would be different, depending entirely on there average score.

This would also get rid of the bandits, because they would soon be found out, and moved up to the next level.

I believe that everyone, irrespective of playing ability could all play together, in a real fun way.

PCS,

Interesting twist on the whole levels thing. What happens when you get promoted to a higher level, your scores decline...are you sent back to the previous level?

What if you are going along fine and you are bumped up to a level you don't want to play on? Are you stuck?

What if you want to play on a level that you are not very good at. Are you locked out of that level?

Again, interesting twist, sort of like morphing levels with handicapping IMO.

Drop Putt Preview. Period. It'd be simple. I'd be quick. And it would probably cause less consternation amongst the minions than a lot of the other stuff being bantered about.

Not sure where/when/who said it, but a 72 with 15 putt-previews can become a 57 (or better) pretty easily. And certainly it can become a 62 without much ado about nothing. Im quite sure guys breaking 50 arent doing it without putt preview.

While its true the better players would be hurt the least, no matter what you do Id venture to say this would be the case. I think people would feel better about the game in general though if the average scores were to go up 6-9 strokes per round, which would most likely happen if putt preview went bye-bye.

It also eliminates the need to skillfully read the greens, which is unfortunate. Reading greens is one of the most important skills in shooting well in reality... why shouldnt it be here as well?

cem_ea_id.BPSkelly wrote:Drop Putt Preview. Period. It'd be simple. I'd be quick. And it would probably cause less consternation amongst the minions than a lot of the other stuff being bantered about.

Not sure where/when/who said it, but a 72 with 15 putt-previews can become a 57 (or better) pretty easily. And certainly it can become a 62 without much ado about nothing. Im quite sure guys breaking 50 arent doing it without putt preview.

While its true the better players would be hurt the least, no matter what you do Id venture to say this would be the case. I think people would feel better about the game in general though if the average scores were to go up 6-9 strokes per round, which would most likely happen if putt preview went bye-bye.

It also eliminates the need to skillfully read the greens, which is unfortunate. Reading greens is one of the most important skills in shooting well in reality... why shouldnt it be here as well?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I refuse to use Putt Previews. Th grids already give the experienced user too much information. Offer user selectable camera angles that lets the user read the greens and drop the grids and you will see scores rise on TOUR Pro. This should only be implemented at the TOUR Pro level.

I sticked because of the importance of this thread.

foreleft72

I am only talking about Tournaments, where everyone can have an equal chance, if your scores are indicating you should play at a particular level so be it.

If you want to play at an easier level, play 'Single Player' mode

Again Putt previews don't need to go bye bye. Say I shoot a 66 with out using putt previews but shoot 52 using putt previews. If I had a handicap system in place it wouldn't matter cause the 66 would make me a +6 to shoot even or a 52 would make be a +20 for even. Now what would be needed is if I had a +6 and used putt previews then there should an added adjustment to make it an even par round. Not everyone uses all 14 putt preveiws per round because sometimes you get close enough you don't have to. That is why a Handicap system plus a index system makes for an even playing field.

cem_ea_id.AuroraGolfNut wrote:Again Putt previews don't need to go bye bye.

At the highest difficulty level, they do. Handicap system or no.

Tim

I also never use Putt Previews, but I would still argue for them being there for people that do want to use them.

That is the whole point of having Options isn't it.

If something like what I was describing above, with regard to Tournaments, at some level, they would be turned off.

Choices, it is all about choices, no one should be trying to dictate what options people use in Single Player mode, it is only in the competitive modes that things should start to tighten up, depending on pre-set levels.

The never ending debate

Strictly speaking of 3 click...

IMO a penalty area for missing the perfect swing is a must. As it stands now, it takes a severe mishit to have the ball go off line. That should be changed, increasing penalty per mis hit distance.

The speed of the swing seems close to what intermediate was on 08, whch is fine as a base. Increasing the swing speed as levels increase would help. I dont know how to tie this in to levels or skill but should be addressed.

I definitely feel that TWO is headed in the right direction. Finding a balance between a game and a sim is a tremendous challenge. I like the way the game at this point plays. I play some tournys, but dont worry about the leaderboard, playing againt scores I have previously posted is challenge enough. One can always increase the difficulty of the conditions and course to get more of a sim feel.

cem_ea_id.PCS608 wrote:Tim

I also never use Putt Previews, but I would still argue for them being there for people that do want to use them.

That is the whole point of having Options isn't it.

If something like what I was describing above, with regard to Tournaments, at some level, they would be turned off.

Choices, it is all about choices, no one should be trying to dictate what options people use in Single Player mode, it is only in the competitive modes that things should start to tighten up, depending on pre-set levels.

you talk about having options but with a handicap system there is no option everyone will be stuck with it, you could not opt out,a handicap system does not make the game more of a challenge and does not address the ultra low scores,if the ultra low scores are not addressed TWO will become another console like game.

Ok. Going to show my age here.....One of the best implementations I have seen in a golf sim was GREENS, by Microprose. They did several things that I have not seen in a sim since (or at least they were not obviously implemeted)
1) The sweet spot varied with the club and the lie. TWO has done the first; If I am in the rough and see a 76% max, if I just pick a bigger club the max may drop to 66%. So far so good. The piece that is missing is the chance of hitting a perfect shot. My chance of hitting a 'perfect' shot with a 3W out of the sand IRL is a little different than my chances with a SW. GREENS actually adjusted teh sweet spot based on club and lie. The other thing that GREENS did was also dynamically reduce the sweet spot based on the back swing. Driving off the tee may not have changed much with a 50% vs 100% swing, But If I try and hit a 5I out of the rough at 100% my sweet spot may start small (pre-backswing) but be reduced to a dead-on perfect spot at the top of my backswing.

2) how to control difficulty. personal preference I like a consistent swing speed across ALL levels of play. If I want to switch between amateur and pro I do not have to retrain my swing (also talking 3-click). But what can and shoudl change is the degree of forgiveness. ie amateur starts with bigger sweet spots than pro, not as much change in sweet spot for lie or backswing (power), not as much penalty for missing the perfect shot.

My concept of the differnce in the amateur and the pro is that they both swing the same speed, the pro just has to me more accurate and consistent in their clicks.

cem_ea_id.PCS608 wrote:Tim

I also never use Putt Previews, but I would still argue for them being there for people that do want to use them.

That is the whole point of having Options isn't it.

If something like what I was describing above, with regard to Tournaments, at some level, they would be turned off.

Choices, it is all about choices, no one should be trying to dictate what options people use in Single Player mode, it is only in the competitive modes that things should start to tighten up, depending on pre-set levels.

Clarifying here...putt previews should be turned off in TOURNAMENTS ONLY in TOUR Pro.