> > These are 12v12 maps,
> > and the last thing you want is a 12v12 invisble
> > sniper fest.
>
> Yeah, just like in Call of Duty 4. Man, those 9 v 9
> invisible sniper fests have ruined that game!
>
> You can't use ANY other weapons like the MP5, M16, or
> G-36C. NOBODY plays that game anymore since it's not
> intense due to the inclusion of prone AND snipers.
> Empty servers, poor sales for IW. Yup, prone +
> snipers = failure!
>
> Doh! Wait a minute!
>
> Must be confused with some other game (Frontlines and
> its crappy weapon modeling and comm system?). COD4
> sessions are readily available since there are so
> many players and their sales are outstanding. Even
> on maps like Creek snipers must fear infiltrating
> SMG'ers and riflemen since the weapons are so well
> balanced and the maps so well designed relative to
> weapon performance.
>
> Here's a crazy idea. Instead of repeating DICE
> marketing department drivel, why don't we gamers
> actually focus on reality!
>
> Now there's a thought! And the reality is that
> other games include prone snipers and without kill
> cams and red dots and they're quite popular and work
> just fine.
>
> And remember, if you really buy the DICE spin, here's
> what you're buying: a very bizzare meeting of the
> DICE development and marketing teams...
>
> developer: "Play tests show the sniper weapon is uber
> powerful while the other weapons fire spit-wads. The
> class is totally unbalanced".
>
> marketer: "Here's a solution! Prevent ALL infantry
> from going prone but LEAVE the weapons as is!"
>
> developer: "Hey, great idea! Why didn't I think of
> that! But will gamers believe that?"
>
> marketer: "Sure! Who are they going to believe, DICE
> or their lying eyes?"
>
> If you think that makes sense, I have this friend in
> Nigeria who would like to speak with you. You see, he
> just inherited vast wealth and...

This made me smile

I will forward DICE my e-mails from my friend in Nigeria who also inherited vast wealth.

> everyone seems to be forgetting, also, that this is
> not BF2 with 64 player maps. These are 12v12 maps,
> and the last thing you want is a 12v12 invisble
> sniper fest.
> Don't get me wrong though, 12v12 is actually really
> intense the way the maps are constantly bottlenecked
>
> in my honest opinion the lack of prone will really
> keep the games intense

You did not just say that. No way, impossible. This proves that you should just let it go Zerk, you can win this one. Fight the Parachute, fight the comm, prone is just a lost cause for you, regardless if they add it or not. You can't defend their policy with justice. You have nothing to one up us with.

Was not Battlefield 2/MC for X-box a 12vs12 game? did it not have snipers? Not once did that game become a sniper fest. Why? This is just one logical reason that your not taking into account. Just one, remember that, one of many.

A sniper fest can't win the game. You've got to take the flag or blow up the crate to win. Sniper rifle with not allow this. It's slow and hard to handle when your dealing with people in close courters. A sniper can't win the game. A player with a heavy weapon, shotgun, or battle rifle will win it. Snipers are for long range attack. If they cause problems they will be found and killed. JUST LIKE IN EVERY BATTLEFIELD GAME. And guess want, not everyone likes being a sniper. Although I did use it one time in the beta, wrecked shot pretty well. I was behind a hill,well hidden, and never found(See the problem in that, or do I need to spell it out.)

Dude, I'm sure you mean well. Your just trying to hard to defend something that Dice is completely wrong on. You look for ways to try to defend against us, only to be smacked down each time because certain things like logic get in the way. Whether Dice puts prone in the game, post release or not, doesn't mean a thing. Point is they're wrong, and I believe you know it.

Message was edited by: Emperor Sulla (EA.com)

> As I remeber, BF: Vietnam brought grass and bushes
> into the terrains of the gameplay. This was an added
> bonuse becuase it allowed the snipers to go prone in
> the middle of a grass field or behind the grass in
> the hilltops and do their job. Somebody would always
> find the sniper anyways.
>
> It was such a cool feature that they decided to redo
> some of the BF 1942 maps and add all the foilage,
> grass, bushes, and trees! So that people could go
> prone!
>
> The main reason for adding the grass was so going
> prone, you would be hidden. So, in the past, DICE
> added grass for going prone, now, they are taking
> prone away?
>
> I don't want to hear any more about how it destroys
> the gameplay for the 5 year olds that are migrating
> from Halo 3 to Battlefield : Bug Company
>
> GFY DICE!

Reopening the thread.

Message was edited by: EA_Dink (BF)

As Zerk has said earlier, the reason prone isn't in the game is due to gameplay reasons; it was a conscious decision made by the studio team. They know that there were those from the community who would like to see it included, but it didn't fit into the game as a whole.

When you play the demo, and especially if you played the beta, you will see the improvements made to the game and we hope that you enjoy it!

~Dink

Has Dice read the counter claims by fans who have said that balance ISN"t an issue?

There have been plenty of good reasons given on why Dice is wrong. Has Dice read them? What does Dice think about them?

The communication between the EA/Dice and it's consumers goes something like this:


Consumer: Hey what's wrong?
EA/Dice: ????????
consumer: What's wrong with the game?
EA/Dice: ????????......... wwhaat ar are you talking abb.....
Consumer: somethings missing!
EA/Dice: Oh yeah what?
consumer: Prone
EA/Dice: we started to wear our pants and shirts the wrong way, It makes us feel normal and able to operate in a better fashion.
consumer: What... the hell????
EA/Dice: WE have to think outside the box, and so decided to start by wearing our clothes the wrong way, anyway it makes us feel more confortable.
consumer: You might be right on this one! It fits you well.
EA/Dice: Yeah next we're going to start walking backwards, what do you think?
Consumer: where's my gun?

> As Zerk has said earlier, the reason prone isn't in
> the game is due to gameplay reasons; it was a
> conscious decision made by the studio team. They
> know that there were those from the community who
> would like to see it included, but it didn't fit into
> the game as a whole.
>
> When you play the demo, and especially if you played
> the beta, you will see the improvements made to the
> game and we hope that you enjoy it!
>
> ~Dink

Dink, I've been communicating in here now for some time in regard to what I think are game issues that aren't fair, aren't realistic and Not Included and all I would like is for someone to tell me why there aren't options to make those issues available within the game features so those of us who want to enjoy the game to its potential can?

Why can't prone or parachutes or whatever be On or Off actions if the Host and his friends within a Private Match want to play with them On or Off?
IMO why those things can't be turned On or Off by a Host within a Private Match with friends is because for unknown reasons DICE with this potentially great BBC game wont give us the ability to Host Private Matches or develop Clan actions with user friendly, logical and realistic options?
So Why is that?
Please, would you or any other so called rep of EA or DICE just give me a simple logical answer as to why no individual Hosting of Private Matches with Friends, something I thought Live always stood for?

> Please, would you or any other so called rep of EA or
> DICE just give me a simple logical answer as to why
> no individual Hosting of Private Matches with
> Friends, something I thought Live always stood for?


There you go, that's what I like to see, slowly but surerly your post are becoming more hostile by the minute, this is where the rest of us are at this point, we're pretty much fed up with they way they've handle this situation. Poor customer service all the way around who aren't capable to solve simple issues like prone.

> > Please, would you or any other so called rep of
> EA or
> > DICE just give me a simple logical answer as to
> why
> > no individual Hosting of Private Matches with
> > Friends, something I thought Live always stood
> for?
>
>
> There you go, that's what I like to see, slowly but
> surerly your post are becoming more hostile by the
> minute, this is where the rest of us are at this
> point, we're pretty much fed up with they way they've
> handle this situation. Poor customer service all the
> way around who aren't capable to solve simple issues
> like prone.

Whoa! I sure didn't think my comments here or anywhere indicated or had a hostile atmosphere because that never was my intent nor has it been my attitude it just isn't my style, I don't have any reason to be hostile I'm just concerned about game issues that affect me so I would appreciate the communication in answering to them.

TBH I almost support the exclusion or inclusion of prone. Since when was BF2MC actually realistic? You all balk about no prone, but there was dots on people's heads. You could also deploy your beloved parachutes in 2 seconds, land 10 feet below and run to cover without having to detach and repack your chute. Guns don't jam, and a sniper shot anywhere on the body was a one hit kill. Headshots with any other gun weren't a one shot kill. Everyone knows, you run faster with your knife out, even though you still have the same weight of the gun strapped to your back, but don't worry, you can quick draw the slung weapon out far enough from its secure spot into a ready shooting position.

So the "realism" card can't be thrown around. In comparison to COD4 you obviously aren't taking into account the movement characteristics. I'm sure that in real life I'd be able to get on top of a 7 foot tall crate if I could climb. BUT as it is a video game I'll have to stick with just vaulting over 3 foot tall window sills. I really enjoy killing someone with one knife stab, or being able to get unloaded on, but then still last stand and kill people. Or martyrdom? Thats realistic as hell. Throwing a special grenade, then put into last stand? Guess what, your smoke grenade becomes a frag you can toss from last stand.

While I am def. worried about the exclusion of prone, the battlefield series on console has always been deveoloped to play more arcady and fast paced than its 64 player pc counterparts. I personally will wait to see how well the play goes, but I'd rather no prone and no killcam, than prone with a killcam. Killcam's are the least realistic and largest ruin to any game. Sniping works in COD4 because the maps are MUCH MUCH MUCH smaller. Battlefield wasn't built around the shooting, but the vehicles if you all remember properly. Vehicles are for larger maps. The only useful vehicle in ANY of the cod4 maps would be a bicycle or a skateboard.

I'm sure EA will be monitoring the demo, seeing how well the no-prone (and alleged no-chutes) plays out. They added in conquest mode and made weapons free to answer the calls of the community. I just think that you all need to chill out and stop freaking out about REALISM in video games. Very few games that are realistic sell. And none of the ones you use as comparison are REALISTIC. The battlefield series on PC is by far one of the more realistic that takes into account a balanced gameplay value, so the screaming and dissing on the production companies isn't needed.

If down the road they anticipate that prone would be more easily reintegrated, I'm sure we can count on them. But until you all have become experienced players, your criticisms hold no backing other than your notions of what you would like to be able to do or not do.

Well ZiPP3RZ I don't think a lecture is needed in regard what others opinions are nor should those opinions showing concern for our desires within a game be classified as whining, right or wrong everyone is entitled to an opinion as long as the express it with class and within the TOS IMO

If someone is a pro or expert at this game already then I envy them and hope they can find some fun still within the game, me I'm still waiting to play the real version so I haven't based any opinion on it's quality or potential, I have stated concerns for things I've been told will be missing and those few things are pretty big and important issues with me personally.

I will say that I played COD4 for many months and finally I just couldn't take the fast paced, hectic and to say the least boring action on the tiny little postage size maps with all the run and gunners.
And, "IMO" in no way would I agree that sniping works on those COD4 little maps, a sniper rarely gets to advance his skills or agendas in those backyard scenarios.

I sure never have suggested or insisted on or even felt it was possible to have total realism in this or any FPS game but if just the smallest most logical actions like prone for every soldier in the game or the detail of parachutes where the only option to use them out of choppers ONLY could be achieved then I think that would be more then enough to satisfy this user.

Maybe those of us who have been discussing this closer to realism issue for quite some time now should have clarified it from the beginning as Minor Realism so others didn't miss read our intentions?

You did make some good points though that I agreed with so all wasn't lost for our intents I guess

My main issue with games these days is the complaints of "camping". While I would be more than willing to allow prone, I'm worried as the sniping was OPd in modern combat. COD4 does make it easier to find the sniper within a smaller area, but if you shoot and move appropriately there is nothing keeping you from going 30 and 5 or whatever. America's army was built around making a true-to-life simulation, and quite frankly I wanted to die after playing for 10 minutes lol.

I just remember the same kind of comments being thrown around prior to the releases of BF2 and BF2MC, and change were made to accommodate them, which were later patched back after release due to balance issues. Unfortunately we aren't seeing the discussion or testing behind the scenes. The Hitbox argument sounds quite reasonable. If they are aiming at making the weapons fire with more spread, a target prone far away would suck.

But like I've said, the key to this is constructive arguments about how it could ADD to the game, or arguments stating facts that support that balance is present with prone. I'm sure with the LARGE amount of hours that will be played for the demo by both casual and hardcore alike will allow them to supervise gameplay well. Comparison to other games and their success has NOTHING to do with it. While it will be difficult to get used to no prone, it will change the play type. Eventually we will adapt to conditions. Rainbow 6 has always been highly successful as well, yet has no prone or quick snap aim. (BTW will BFBC be a quick snap like COD/GOW? Or click and stay like prior releases?)

It has already been programmed into the gaming engine, so all it would take is a patch to fix it (much simpler than even Conquest mode). I personally haven't even seen the beta in action, so Thursday will be when I decide if i miss prone or not.

I understand your point,but the gameplay will change without prone into a run-n-gun type game, taking away an option you would otherwise have, therefore limiting the potential to have more than one way of doing battle. Battlefield is Battlefield and not rainbowsix, they're two different games, one has prone the other doesn't and on cod4 sniping isn't sniping like on the previous battlefield games, the maps aren't big enough. Just think about it, it's common sense, there's only one way to fight in a game without prone, the choice for a gamer to play in either a rambo run-n-gun or to camp all day fashion should be ours to make.

I'm curious, does crouching affect accuracy at all? Ideally, I think accuracy should change drastically depending on how you fire your gun and from what position. From strafing to standing to crouching, to proning, it should gradually improve your accuracy.

Now that it doesn't have proning, it does not bode well for me if they don't have accuracy changes depending on body orientation. Frankly I don't want another run and gun, spray and pray game like COD4.

Proning should go beyond as means of hiding; it should affect accuracy and that directly affects the type of game play that's at the core of the shooter. When you can't prone, you're directly affecting modes of play, and throws positioning and environmental awareness right out the window...if you think proning affects balance, there's clearly something wrong with the way your game mechanics are set up.

If anyone has ever played the old Day of Defeat beta on the original HL, that game had it right and that game is 8 years old. I'm sad to see games today are now regressing on every front except for the graphical department. It just seems game company are dumbing games down to try to get the biggest market share by drastically lowering the learning curve.

Message was edited by: Claymore_47 (EA Id)

Oh man, DoD was great i still actually play a little bit of DoD:Source everynow and then, that game made it well pretty strong only community as well, very man maps, many large maps, great gameplay was brought in that game