Electronic Arts

DexEngineer wrote:FindFirstFileEx search for directories and files of one level only, not each and every directory to the deepest level.

You can use the bitflags of the FINDEX_SEARCH_OPS enum with FindFirstFileEx to enumerate all directories found within a directory, FindFirstFile searches all directories and files regardless.

DexEngineer wrote:
I have tested Origin in November and it was still behaving like that. Users do not need to prove that this does happen. EA must prove that does not.

Origin still uses the API, just without the bug causing your entire drive to be enumerated.

I can prove Origin doesn't scan your files, here's a API trace I preformed using off-the-shelf software from Rohitab from process start to finish:



The CRYPT32.dll entries scanning the SystemCertificates directories are the result of Wininet.dll initializing SSL.

dmex wrote:You missed the point. Bug or no bug (obviously not), this is about EULA, as shown in the title of this thread.

I already answered the question about the EULA and Origin scanning your hard-drive a few posts back

http://forum.ea.com/eaforum/posts/list/250/7488935.page#19551063

dmex

Good to know about the OpenOrigin.
I would like to know if Origin will have features like Community page, Make a party to voice chat and join multiplayer games, achievements and stats (like playtime).

dmex, you're like a child.

Current EULA:
"2. Consent to Collection and Use of Data.
EA knows that you care how information about you is collected, used and shared, and we appreciate your trust that we will do so carefully and sensibly. Information about our customers is an important part of our business, and EA would never sell your personally identifiable information to anyone, nor would it ever use spyware or install spyware on users’ machines. We and agents acting on our behalf do not share information that personally identifies you without your consent, except in rare instances where disclosure is required by law or to enforce EA’s legal rights.
In addition to information that you give EA directly, EA collects non-personally identifiable (or anonymous) information for purposes of improving our products and services, providing services to you, facilitating the provision of software updates, dynamically served content and product support as well as communicating with you. The non-personally identifiable information that EA collects includes technical and related information that identifies your computer (including the Internet Protocol Address) and operating system, as well as information about your Application usage (including but not limited to successful installation and/or removal), software, software usage and peripheral hardware. As noted above, this information is gathered periodically for purposes such as improving our products and services, troubleshooting bugs, and otherwise enhancing your user experience.
This and all other data provided to EA and/or collected by EA in connection with your installation and use of this Application is collected, used, stored and transmitted in accordance with EA’s Privacy Policy located at www.ea.com. To the extent that anything in this section conflicts or is inconsistent with the terms of EA’s Privacy Policy, the terms of the Privacy Policy shall control."

What will stop EA from doing what it did in the past? Certainly not EULA.

I assume you had no problem with those terms when you bought ME2/DA2 then? The terms still existed even if did or did not have to activate online. Or is now just because comes with Origin. The EULA you were happy with when bought all previous titles so it is not solely about that unless you plead ignorance for past actions. Which means it must be about Origin itself not the EULA per se.

I think Dmex has shown he knows what he is talking about [technical skills]. I think you Dex are coming off worse in this showdown in that regard. This is coming from another customer just like you Dex and not EA which even I can see this.

It comes in the end down to I believe even if you sat there and watched him code the program yourself, you still won't be happy and even if the EULA is changed to your perfect worded version you will still turn around and say "Well... You could still change it in future". In which case there is no hope towards you ever resolving your mistrust and that's all it comes down to in the end (trust).

They cannot force you or me to trust them and in your case I believe they never will be able to no matter what they do.

I get the impression you simply do not wish to have to use Origin when playing but it is their legal right to decide what products they supply with their titles, whether that is additional software, DLC, addons or extra content including and not limited to soundtracks or documents and DRM. (Even though I truly hope they never use always online for single player titles as that is just plain nasty to use). I know that if lose connection or internet even if unplug internet cable I can still launch Origin and sign into offline mode as well as play games still so I do know they currently do not use always online DRM which I am very grateful for.

I personally would love to see how this OpenOrigin turns out. I also have no objections to a Opt Out/Opt In function to client, not because I would use it but because it will then be the same as Steam offers and people can't use it to then beat Origin with.

P.s. Would love to know when these third party developers are going to be putting all their titles on Origin, one of the only major gripes I have about it is how little on offer is there title wise.

Dragoonlordz wrote:It comes in the end down to I believe even if you sat there and watched him code the program yourself, you still won't be happy and even if the EULA is changed to your perfect worded version you will still turn around and say "Well... You could still change it in future". In which case there is no hope towards you ever resolving your mistrust and that's all it comes down to in the end (trust).

They cannot force you or me to trust them and in your case I believe they never will be able to no matter what they do.

I get the impression you simply do not wish to have to use Origin when playing but it is their legal right to decide what products they supply with their titles, whether that is additional software, DLC, addons or extra content including and not limited to soundtracks or documents and DRM. (Even though I truly hope they never use always online for single player titles as that is just plain nasty to use). I know that if lose connection or internet even if unplug internet cable I can still launch Origin and sign into offline mode as well as play games still so I do know they currently do not use always online DRM which I am very grateful for.

I personally would love to see how this OpenOrigin turns out. I also have no objections to a Opt Out/Opt In function to client, not because I would use it but because it will then be the same as Steam offers and people can't use it to then beat Origin with.

P.s. Would love to know when these third party developers are going to be putting all their titles on Origin, one of the only major gripes I have about it is how little on offer is there title wise.

I am sure there are many intrusive EULAs which violate privacy and gamers still keep accepting them. But in case of Origin they actually used this acceptance to scan my Program Data folder. I do not care about Program Files, but I prefer EA not to sniff around for non-related programs, which are not EA's interest.
Dmex has skills, but he is also so ignorant that he claim that I show lack of experience. Such statements do not come from EA staff for sure. I am not expert, but Dmex is far from being Jedi Master of Windows API. I claim that either EA's developers are stupid and cannot handle FindFirstFileEx or this code was intentional. Choose yourself, both pretty bad for EA.
Trust? This is about legal agreement, ToS and EULA. I trust my friends and family. There was not trust before and never will. This is about the fact that EA crossed the line and I want to be sure that it will not happen again.
I have already written in another thread... I do not invite people I do not know to my house. Origin is like a foreigner who asks you to leave doors open and promises not to enter to your private area. Then when you discover his intentions, he changes EULA by promising not to tell anybody what you have at home.
Comparing Origin to DLC is misleading. To play BF3 on PC you need 4 components: BF3, Origin, Browser, Browser's Add-On. I consider Add-On as a program, since it has functionality of such. And I would even agree to all this nonsense because I want to play BF3, but EA must provide LEGAL prove that sniffing is the past.
Open Origin? Very nice idea. I am sceptical, but if it becomes real I will be in a first row to use it. Providing it will not scan my data and non-related programs.
Non-EA games in Open Origin? Nice idea as well. In fact it is quite clear that EA cannot have succesful gaming platform with own titles only.
And one more question to EA. Why SWTOR does not require Origin? Or maybe I am wrong and it is only a gossip.

Dragoonlordz wrote:

I get the impression you simply do not wish to have to use Origin when playing but it is their legal right to decide what products they supply with their titles, whether that is additional software, DLC, addons or extra content including and not limited to soundtracks or documents and DRM.

Not entirely.

The difference with your examples is that DLCs, addons or extra content are specific variations of the software you already decided to buy: the game. Origin by itself is not part of the product and thus can't be 'legally' claimed to be part of the game you are buying, regardless of how much EA may claim they want to integrate the service into their consumer experience.

You can look up Microsoft and the EU forcing them to unhinge Internet Explorer from Windows for an apt comparison, and I dare say Microsoft managed to integrate internet explorer far more deeply with windwos than EA will ever be able to integrate Origin with any of their games.

By your claim, Microsoft would have been 'legally right' to force IE on any of their customers ("supply any software with", to use your wording), yet the EU felt otherwise, and it is because of them that we have a much more thriving market for browsers on the windows platform than would have been the case otherwise.

So stop pretending, shall we?

DexEngineer wrote:
And one more question to EA. Why SWTOR does not require Origin? Or maybe I am wrong and it is only a gossip.

It doesn't.

I bought it specifically because I like Bioware and dislikes Origin. As things are turning out, it's most likely the last Bioware game I will ever support cause it look like EA are forcing them to jam Origin in with everything.

I asume (Since Bioware has been shown not to have the oomph themselves to stand up against EA, by example of ME3 needing Origin) that the call came directly from Lucasarts to give consumers a choice.

When setting up install of SW:TOR you get a dialog box asking you if you want to install Origin alongside your game, the box to choose it wasn't even ticked in to start with, which was a pleasant surprise for me. So I had to recheck my eyes weren't deceiving me, just to be sure, before I clicked next with Origin deselected, so I didn't get it installed on my system.

All in all, I'm pretty happy with being able to play SW:TOR without having been forced to install Origin

It was a breaking point for me, actually, in whether or not I would have purchased the game. I reckon it would have been a fair amount of money they would end up loosing, actually, with subscriptions added in, if they had tried forcing Origin on their SW:TOR users...

Today's Amazon Germany status for BF3 PC:
5 start - 389
4 start - 91
3 start - 65
2 start - 72
1 start - 3657 <- should be in fact no star at all

3657 negative opinions!
Those positive are people who do not understand the situation and say: "I have nothing to hide". Yes, some people talk nonsense.

I do not get it. How EA cannot see that the whole Origin story is just wrong. One day somebody will break MP code of the game and it will go underground. Shouldn't be that way. I know that it's about money, but doesn't EA lose real money here?

I presume that ME3 will be much bigger disaster. I know I will not buy it. But impact of Origin's bad reputation will scare also those who are not aware. In Europe Origin already functions as synonym of malware.

DexEngineer wrote:Today's Amazon Germany status for BF3 PC:
5 start - 389
4 start - 91
3 start - 65
2 start - 72
1 start - 3657 <- should be in fact no star at all

3657 negative opinions!
Those positive are people who do not understand the situation and say: "I have nothing to hide". Yes, some people talk nonsense.

I do not get it. How EA cannot see that the whole Origin story is just wrong. One day somebody will break MP code of the game and it will go underground. Shouldn't be that way. I know that it's about money, but don't EA lose real money here?

I presume that ME3 will be much bigger disaster. I know I will not buy it. But impact of Origin's bad reputation will scare also those who are not aware. In Europe Origin already functions as synonym of malware.

I'm sorry but you just can't say that people who gave BF3 a 5 star rating "Don't understand". Did you talk to each and every one of them to find out for yourself? Plus saying that allows anyone to say that all the 1 Star raters simply "Do not understand" which nullifies this entirely.

Also you can not call Origin Malware as it does not fit the definition of the word in anyway unless evidence is shown to prove otherwise that EA is clearly focused on taking people private information to use in a malicious way against the consumer. (Also I did look up the exact definition before posting this.)

@Salsa

Doesn't work that way with games. If Valve can force people to install Steam with retail purchase of Bethesda's games aka Skyrim and more than EA have the same right to supply clients with their own games.

@Dmex

Well, you can opt out of sharing data and being contacted by EA, but unless we're German Origin users, we cannot opt out of data collection by EA if using Origin.

That said, I do appreciate the answer.
It's nice to get a response with some details.
Thankyou.

I'm not sure whether it's enough reassurance on it's own.
Still, I'll be thinking it over.

My primary remnant issue is the status of the EULA.
Given that an EULA, any EULA, can be altered at any time without any user consultation more indepth than "sign to agree or bugger off", do I have enough trust left in EA to have faith in Origin remaining in this benign form?
I'm not sure.

The issue at the heart of this is wider than the scope of this forum.
In all honesty, that scope has probably been stretched enough over the course of these discussions.
Is it right that one party can make drastic and repeated alterations to a binding agreement without considering the protection of the other party?
That's an important question, but also a matter for another place and time.

I keep thinking about trust, y'see.
That's what it's come down to.
Do I still trust EA?

They've proven time and time again that as a paying, loyal and consistant customer, they have little to no trust in me.
Mistargetted DRM and other such scrutiny...
The EULA stacks powers and protection in layers for the developer, but seems light at best for the consumer. (I know we still have rights acknowledged within it. Well, the ones we don't agree to waive.)
Lets not forget the topical support of Sopa through the ESA.
Trust is meant to be a two way street, isn't it?

Like I said before, I've got a lot to think about.

DexEngineer wrote:Today's Amazon Germany status for BF3 PC:
5 start - 389
4 start - 91
3 start - 65
2 start - 72
1 start - 3657 <- should be in fact no star at all

3657 negative opinions!

I presume that ME3 will be much bigger disaster. I know I will not buy it. But impact of Origin's bad reputation will scare also those who are not aware.

A particular forum called for users to voice their disapproval with Origin by down-voting Battlefield 3 on Amazon.

DexEngineer wrote:In Europe Origin already functions as synonym of malware.

I continuously see people calling Origin spyware or malware on just about every website and forum thank's to the FUD campaign by the media, We should be more proactive on the forum and elsewhere to prove it's untrue than just saying "Origin is not spyware" or referring users to a media release for more information.

Since most staff on here have avoided this thread and these types of questions, I hope I'll be able to put this issue to rest once and for all by answering any questions you or others might have to the best of my ability.

Midarc wrote:@Dmex

Well, you can opt out of sharing data and being contacted by EA, but unless we're German Origin users, we cannot opt out of data collection by EA if using Origin.

That said, I do appreciate the answer.
It's nice to get a response with some details.
Thankyou.

I'm not sure whether it's enough reassurance on it's own.
Still, I'll be thinking it over.

My primary remnant issue is the status of the EULA.
Given that an EULA, any EULA, can be altered at any time without any user consultation more indepth than "sign to agree or bugger off", do I have enough trust left in EA to have faith in Origin remaining in this benign form?
I'm not sure.

If a similar situation happened a second time the backlash would be 10 times bigger and would undo all the work we've done to reassure you and others this doesn't and would never occur, It's also illegal without your explicit consent in countries like Germany.

There's a saying "Do not do unto others what you do not want others do unto you".

From a developer perspective, invasive scanning for user data is highly unreliable and very legally dangerous, for example; if we collected your data there's no reliable way to know what it is and it could be by a Microsoft employee working on Windows source-code and would result in a very lengthy and costly lawsuit by Microsoft not to mention the backlash from users and other companies for even attempting such data collection.

dmex wrote:You can also Opt-out of sharing information via your profile page under 'Contact Options'
https://profile.ea.com/myprofile.do

dmex

Finally, a good, straight answer from someone at EA. Many thanks for your designing Open Origin. I'm looking forward to using it.

Keep up the good work. This thread has begun to restore a bit of faith that other mods have worked hard to destroy.
(http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/8996121/80#9012731)

That opt out link doesn't prevent EA sharing your data with itself. That's the heart of the problem. Demx, is there any particular reason why EA refuses to allow its paying customers to opt out all data sharing beyond the minimum required to log into the system? is there any chance that ea will change that policy for non-Germans?

The second issue I have with origins is what happens to my ability to play legally purchased games if, in the future, EA changes their Eula/TOS in a way that I decide I cannot agree with? IMO, if I've paid for a single player game, the ability to continue to access that game should never be taken away by EA for any reason. Multiplayer games are a somewhat different situation (cheaters, etc). But if we pay, we should get to play. The situation as it stands is that some people have lost their ability to play their ea games when some maroon forum mod bans them from a forum. In some cases these bans are thoroughly deserved, in others they are egregiously wrong to have done so and the ea support people perpetuate the wrong by making such bans permanent and un-appeal able. Regardless of whether the ban is right or wrong for the forum, to remove that persons access to single player games that they've purchased is no less a theft than copyright infringement is, IMO.

Interested to see your response.

Craigdolphin wrote:The situation as it stands is that some people have lost their ability to play their ea games when some maroon forum mod bans them from a forum. In some cases these bans are thoroughly deserved, in others they are egregiously wrong to have done so and the ea support people perpetuate the wrong by making such bans permanent and un-appeal able. Regardless of whether the ban is right or wrong for the forum, to remove that persons access to single player games that they've purchased is no less a theft than copyright infringement is, IMO.

Seconded. There should be multiple types of bans.

• Forum Bans (possibly forum/game specific)
• Game Bans (from that game only)
• Global Bans (for repeat offenders or egregious offenses)

Banning from every EA game they've ever purchased through Origin because they said something stupid or inflammatory on the EA forums is a bit harsh. Especially when some of these people were never warned to cease, prior to banning. Furthermore, in every case, these bans should be disputable, and, in most cases, removed for first-time offenders.