The Masters

The Wii TW development team seem to be somewhat seperate to those developing for the other platforms. So in the "Tiger Woods PGA TOUR® General Discussion", it seems to be somewhat rare that Wii is actually mentioned in a thread/posting. If it is, the poster is generally referred to this Wii-specific forum. Okay, so that's cool, but there's a lot of things happening for the other platforms that isn't happening here. Take a look at this thread by Oblong, Moderator:

http://forum.ea.com/eaforum/posts/list/290046.page

I've never once seen a poll such as this used in the Wii TW forum. Moderators in the forums for other platforms (and looks like we can count "general discussion" into that) have been asking players what they want in TW11 since 24th July 2009 - only weeks after TW10 was released. Months later, here in the wii forum we've yet to see a single response from EA regarding the single most contraversial "feature" in the game - Assisted Hole Outs. No threads, no postings. Nothing. And don't get sidetracked, this is just one example. Here in the Wii TW forum, what we have is a lot of useful suggestions kindly supplied by the public / players, that fail to get a response from EA. We deserve more than an occasional answer to a question that should have been answered in the so-called "manual". We deserve to have our input recognised, and we deserve to know how that input is shaping future changes to TW, both for next version, and for online server changes. There's no point in creating an update to a game if you don't know what players want (in or out). The trusting souls that we are, continue to create thread after thread in a seemingly vain attempt to get a dialogue going with EA or its representatives. I see occasional posts here from EA, and very helpful they are too. But the sort of support I'm looking for is:

1. Soliciting of information from players: Well organised, as in sticky threads, polls and an index to important threads that don't quite deserve being sticky. New sticky threads and polls to be created at or near the time that the subject arises and is discussed in normal threads (and not put off for weeks or months).
2. A "Please read before posting" should always be the #1 sticky thread, writable by moderators.
3. FAQ (Maintained by moderators) should always be the #2 sticky thread. This, or another specialised FAQ should contain all recognised TW10 issues (bugs/glitches/oversights etc). As many people don't initially know whether their question will end up being a recognised issue or not, I'd suggest having issues in with the normal FAQ is the way to go. Anything that is asked frequently should have an entry here regardless.
4. A regular (weekly or two weekly) post in the #3 sticky thread, from one of the top EA Wii TW developers or moderators, providing forum users with the latest on how our input (and possibly the input from other parties) is shaping development of TW11 and current online server features / performance. Each unresolved / ongoing matter should have an entry. We want to see how EA priorities compare to ours. We want to see the history of matters and not just the most recent update. Perhaps this may bring better recognition to matters which are put off for too many months / years.
5. An online manual. Start with what went out with TW10, and grow it. The first entry in items #2 and #3 above will be a reference to this.
6. Every TW release should have in it, a reference to these forums, as well as the online manual. These should be mentioned on page #1 of the paper manual that comes with the disc. More forum users means higher quality input, and load sharing.

It doesn't take long to realise that issues in our forum just keep going around and around, and for some of them, year after year. It's a waste of time. OUR TIME.

Assisted Hole Out (AHO) threads in the last 30 days:
AHOs ..... (again)
If game gets rediculous, I will quit
TW10 Glitches list on video
How you can tell when you're about to have an Assisted Hole Out (AHO)
observation on AHO's
AHO: tougher with M+?
Do AHOs exist in TW10? The definitive test!
How do players hole out?
Computer/system affect on play

Now take a step back to October 2008 (TW09):
Idea for those really getting sick of assisted hole-outs...
Assisted hole outs
This thread for ppl willing to play w/ no cheatures
etc..


Quitters / disconnects threads in the last 30 days:
Quitters continued...
Nailing Down the Disconnect Issue
Tiger Woods 10 coup or coop?
You Should Really Never Quit
EA EA EA !!!!!!!! why cant you work your online out
oponent drop, no win
WTF - EA
PLEASE DON'T QUIT ON LATE HOLES WHEN OPPONENT IS HAVING A GOOD GAME;
EA REPLY ABOUT DISCONNECTS;
EA developers not able to see errors
Wins being counted as losses
Noobie - Is there online "Quit" etiquette?
Tiger Woods 10 online ruined experience

When TW09 first went online, the disconnect / quitters threads abounded. They have ever since.

Why the need to post about these issues over and over?? Are we not the ones paying for the development of this, the previous and the next TW? Does our view not count? We don't even have a fully functional search forum function, and this has been the case for YEARS!!

So EA, listen up. Fix up this forum, and get some decent 2 way communication and accountability happening. If the forum users can afford to spend 4000 hours per week providing EA with masses of information on glitches, feature wants, testing results and other forms of feedback on the product and servers, then EA can afford a paid moderator / developer / manager / other to organise and maintain and constantly improve this forum for say 40 hours per week. If you don't need our input, then now is a good time to say so.

Just one word to that AMEN!

I try to respond to many of the posts in the forums, but my full-time job as an EA employee is to design and develop the game, and I barely have enough time during the week to do that. So while I may not be able to personally respond to everything that's posted here, I do at least try to keep up with the active points of discussion.

You guys don't want AHOs online? They're already gone for next year. You want to be able to force people to use the advanced swing or precision putting, you'll have that ability. You don't want people chipping on the greens? We'll make you putt next year. You don't want people abuse the practice shot arcs? They'll be gone from online games. You want an adjustable shot clock? That'll be an option too. You guys wanted disconnects reduced from 33% game completion, so we changed it to 12%.

You may feel like you have no input, but that's far from the truth. Obviously the market stretches well beyond the very small subset of players that are active on the forum, so the design is never going to cater to your every whim, but I'm trying to give you guys the majority of what you want. That said, some things are simply not feasible to do. Would it be great to allow a player to continue their round if their opponent disconnects? Sure it would, but unfortunately the game simply isn't architectured in such a way that would make that feasible to implement.

As far as moderators go, Oblong and the others on the 360/PS3 forums are not EA employees. They are simply active community members who have volunteered to give back to the forums and help other players. If you or anyone else is interested in taking up that role on the Wii forums, let me know and I'll try to put you in contact with the appropriate people to make that happen.

Thats a very good news for next year eric keep it up.

Eric, we've always found you to be very responsive to our requests. One of the big things I've noticed from previous years postings is that more people are posting about how to get better at the game, and fewer people are posting about gripes they have with the game.

I love the list of new features you mentioned. I mostly wish for two things for online play:

1. Real Golf mode, which combines a lot of the things you mentioned...basically nothing that you can't do in real golf.
2. WiiSpeak support, or some technology to chat during the match.

And not sure if this is mentioned in your list, but a way to cede victory during a match (rather than just disconnecting). It would have to be agreed to by the opponent(s).

Thanks again for your great work.

cem_ea_id.brianlevine wrote:2. WiiSpeak support, or some technology to chat during the match.

Nintendo are VERY restrictive when it comes to controlling the interaction of players online. Wii Speak support, or any type of open communication such as free-form keyboard chat, is only allowed between Wii Friends. I assume the assumption is that in order to become Wii Friends you have to have already talked to the persons outside of Nintendo's system to exchange 16 digit codes (email, phone call, etc.).

Unfortunately this restriction means that we are specifically prohibited from supporting it for EA Buddies. There's also just the issue of popularity, which is sort of a "chicken or the egg" situation. Not many people have it, and not many game support it. If more people buy it, would more games support it? If more games supported it, would more people buy it? I don't know the answers. It's something we'd all love to have, but as it stands it's a tough sell to justify sinking a lot of time and resources into something that not many people would use, and even for those that could use it would have pretty limited application.

Fair enough. Real Golf mode?

I like the changes you have put into place for TW11. Keep up the good work, Eric.

cem_ea_id.brianlevine wrote:Fair enough. Real Golf mode?

As I've said before, we want to give you the ability to force a level playing field for all players in an online game. Exactly what those settings include is something that can and probably will change as we get further into production. There is such a thing as too much control, and I don't think it would be reasonble to make the host sort through pages of settings that most people wouild never care to change every time they want to set up a match. Likewise for someone joining a match, they shouldn't have to hunt through a ton of settings to see if it's set up the way they want to play.

So, of the existing settings in the game, what would you want to lock?

easw.EA_EricBusch wrote:

cem_ea_id.brianlevine wrote:Fair enough. Real Golf mode?

As I've said before, we want to give you the ability to force a level playing field for all players in an online game. Exactly what those settings include is something that can and probably will change as we get further into production. There is such a thing as too much control, and I don't think it would be reasonble to make the host sort through pages of settings that most people wouild never care to change every time they want to set up a match. Likewise for someone joining a match, they shouldn't have to hunt through a ton of settings to see if it's set up the way they want to play.

So, of the existing settings in the game, what would you want to lock?

1. Advanced Swing Only (hence, no spin)
2. No Practice Swings
3. No Putt Preview
4. No Fade and Draw Arrows in Zoom Mode (preferably no club adjustments at all in zoom). A few people want no zoom at all.
5. No Putt Power Meter

I think that's about it. Thanks.

Eric, let me start off by saying thanks again for spending as much time on here as you do. I hardly find the time any more to get on here and reply to everything, and I KNOW my job isn't as intensive as game development. So thanks for even taking the time to listen and dialogue with us.

easw.EA_EricBusch wrote:Obviously the market stretches well beyond the very small subset of players that are active on the forum, so the design is never going to cater to your every whim, but I'm trying to give you guys the majority of what you want.

This is a huge point that I believe is often missed here on the forums. I love how balanced the game is already, and I think it caters to a lot of different players. I've said before that AHO is a great feature, when used at the right time with the right players. It's not for everyone, which is why a simple "off switch" is all that is necessary. But if you're taking it out altogether, that's even better. Thanks for listening to our whining. It'll be a much better game without them.

easw.EA_EricBusch wrote:
As I've said before, we want to give you the ability to force a level playing field for all players in an online game.
So, of the existing settings in the game, what would you want to lock?

Advanced swing is a biggy, as that also does away with spin, putt preview, and auto draw/fade. Since you're already planning that one, I'll say no putt meter. I've been playing a lot of no putt meter in brianlevine's real golf tournament, and I'm really loving it. I know there are many others who have been turned on to no putt meters through the pro tournaments. Some of us would love to play with a forced setting like that.

Since I've got your ear, let me also mention another concern. While I love the fact that my profile character can drive over 400 yards, it would be really nice to limit that somehow in some scenarios. Like I mentioned above, there's a time and place for unrealistic features like this, but the game can be way more fun if you can play the course as it was intended by design. I would like to see a feature that allowed longer distance, but also a mode that limited it. I've mentioned in the past having an arcade mode and sim mode, or something like that. This may be more difficult to implement than I realize, but I'd love to see drives dialed down to something like 320 yards. Like I said, it may not be for everyone, but there are plenty of hardcore players who would love to play from black tees with shorter distance.

Thanks again, Eric!

Eric-

I have stated it many times that you have been amazing. The chanage from 33% to 12% on the quitting was HUGE!. If nothing else was done I would have been a happy camper.

Glen was reacting to the fact that we were unaware that all the other possibilities were being considered. While it seems you may have felt attacked by the thread I know Glen well enough to know that was not his intent.

I am gald that Glen started the thread as that has caused the response that I find very encouraging regarding no AHO's next year. Obviously there is much more that you are incorporating into the 2011 game.

My hat is off to you and all you do.

Perhaps you could create a thread that you provide the considerations such as you just mentioned and add to it exclusively when you have a free moment. If you could do that for us we will continue to add to that as things occur. Ob viously there are things that are restricted and cannot be done. There are others that the architechure does not permit. Improvements were significant this year and I for one will buy the 2011 game based soley on what I know will change from this thread.

Thanks you again for taking the time to respond.

Jeffro

Thanks for all the replies and thanks for getting involved on this one Eric.

However, my point has been completely missed and by everyone! Look at the subject: "EA, Listen up". This is about communications. This is not yet another thread about feature complaints. I specifically said AHOs are just an example and not to get sidetracked. While many and even most of the points Eric has made are very welcome, it completely misses my point. I listed 6 things that I was specifically looking for. Not one has been addressed, other than Eric has mentioned that he personally hasn't got time to be the one to carry these sort of things out. Of course that is the case. Eric is a top Software Developer. He develops TW for the Wii, not forum software. He needs to know about what we want and get on with the job of developing the next TW, not working on the communication systems between players and EA. Whoever EA pays to do that job, will obviously not be a Wii TW software developer. I don't care what the arrangement is with moderators in other forums. I referred to a feature that is obviously available already in the forum software, and that it has never been used here in the Wii TW forum (Polls). It's about gathering information, organising and then feeding through to EA (and at the moment it looks like Eric is the #1) a list of suggested changes / additions / removals of features that appear to be able to work, because players and EA have thrashed it out and we came to near universal agreement. This cannot and should not be just assumed from a one sided conversation. EA has limitations on what they can do. That needs to be communicated to us, so we're not wasting out time and getting frustrated about things that EA cannot or will not do. But such a list dont in static form doesn't work. New ideas need to be looked at and thrashed out first before decisions are made about whether it can be done or not. The form of solution may not be obvious until then. Dialogues done in the correct form. Sticky threads. Polls. Two Way ongoing communications. And not as an off topic post in a non-sticky thread that doesn't hang around for long and won't be found by searches after 7 days. I'm sorry, but all the responses so far are off topic. Because this isn't about features. Around and around we continue..

In response to any comment about forum users being a tiny minority, please read the last item in my 6 item list.

40 hours per week too much to improve and maintain forum software? Let's look at that after the search function is fixed, and the other glitches (such as the post I'm currently writing jumping about when I pause typing for 5 seconds).

easw.EA_EricBusch wrote:
You guys don't want AHOs online? They're already gone for next year. You want to be able to force people to use the advanced swing or precision putting, you'll have that ability. You don't want people chipping on the greens? We'll make you putt next year. You don't want people abuse the practice shot arcs? They'll be gone from online games. You want an adjustable shot clock? That'll be an option too. You guys wanted disconnects reduced from 33% game completion, so we changed it to 12%.

these changes are great news but i see nothing mentioned about live tourneys. at first i played these but soon became fed up with the exploitable aspects in scoring. before and early after release i campaigned for the introduction of single or limited tries. to which it took a very long time to eventually be told it couldnt be done. as it is at the moment you have a very exiting aspect of the online game not fulfilling its potential.
i do appreciate when you do take the time to answer even if it isnt your job, so like so many times before all i look for is an answer be it YES, NO or we dont know.

Glad to see the chip tracers will be gone..also the practice shots in on line play. There are some of us that do not like the new precision putting and new remote.. I like the old classic and find it really frustrating playing on line with all the goodies that the M+ players have. I don't mind the AHO as that and putt preview are the only ones available to classic players and M+ players alike. I think we just need a more even playing field so that all players with all remote preferences can play a more fair game.