A Petition to have EA Increase the effects due to 'Pro Passing'

Update 29th September '10

Incredibly, the depths of the problem were even worse than could possibly be imagined. All of this petition, and I'm sure all of its followers, were working off the assumption that pro passing could not, to any extent, be turned off online. We were told again, and again, and again by EA that online you would NOT be able to turn off the user-skill based element of pro passing.

Many, many reports now imply that in fact, whilst his may be true in Clubs, it is not the case for the mainstay of online play - 1v1 ranked head to head matches. So whilst I/many others have criticised the extremely weak implementation of the user-element of Pro Passing, we did assume that it would at least exist. The problem, essentially, has now multiplied in size. The one place where Pro Passing being inadequate would really cause problems, online, is now going to ONCE AGAIN be a breeding ground for ping pong passing.

It is quite possible that this is a bug, a mistake, and it is also possible that it may be fixable, and it may be fixable within the short term - but for the sake of this petition, this really is starting to look pretty desperate.

Update 21st September '10

So, it seems that after a couple of weeks this petition has received over 400 signatures, with around 100 people against. Considering a fair level of bias on this forum I find the results very encouraging and feel that this forum at least, by a serious margin, agrees with the general view that FIFA 11's Pro Passing system is simply not enough. So far, perhaps understandably as I'm sure EA are at the "have a breather" stage of the development cycle if they have one at all, we have received almost no response from EA.

The only real replies we've received are tweets from David Rutter http://twitter.com/ruttski):

Ruttski wrote:If you want even more pro passing you can always try manual

Now this response is little more than a whitewash - but that should not deter us - it is understandable perhaps that Rutter would not take this petition that seriously until people had played the game, and perhaps he did not realise the list of people who'd already played the game. Now we have all played the game extensively, and I have done my best to test this part of the game to its limits. My views have not changed, though the understanding of the issues has deepened a little - and seeing as almost half of the signatures for this petition are since the demo released I don't think the community has reneged on this cause.

What I do think has happened since Rutter's response is that a lot of people, on both sides of the issue, have decided this is over. The side of this debate which thinks that all is dandy sees this as a victory - and it is not. The supporters of the petition see this as a highly depressing confirmation that EA don't listen to us - and it is not. This is not over.

We need to press for a proper response, a detailed, comprehensive response to this petition. There is no point to dawdle any longer - the community is behind this one and they say that they listen to this community - and we at the very least deserve a response. EA have all too often in the past failed to go far enough because they are afraid of hurting the casual community - and this is clearly what this is about.

I have been disturbed by the typical responses from the anti-petition posters. Whether it comes down to their complete delusions about how real football works - the fantasy of brilliant footballers with their infallible passing, or the accusatory strawmen - where 'we' in the evil manual community want assisted to be manual and every pass to be a missed pass.

I want to just reply to that for a second - the supporters of this petition are not necessarily manual players. Sure, some, if not most of them are, but that doesn't mean that they all are - and even if they are manual players that doesn't mean they want assisted to be manual. Though the argument about Pro Passing is intertwined with assisted it is not the same debate. This is about making all three settings more realistic - and currently, though I'd argue manual is the most realistic, the lack of error on stupidly angled passes is a flaw in all three.

The general amount of weighting error, and aiming human error inherent to manual currently, added to the error within Pro Passing works out to be a pretty good system - but once you take out the weighting/aiming human error, like you do with assisted it still comes back to being a system where you have to do something pretty crass for a pass to fail, even with players who aren't great at passing.

Having broken the 400 barrier, I'm going to recontinue my efforts, and anything anyone can do to help will be vastly appreciated, and if we are successful - then hopefully the whole community will appreciate it in the long term.

------------------- Original Post -------------------

Out of all of my findings when I went to play FIFA 11, probably the most underwhelming was how little Pro Passing affected my game. I have also seen the same problems highlighted by the videos released by EA, and gamescom/gamerbase/emirates visitors. Having read/listened to various other playtest reviews, I knew that I was by no means the only person who felt these problems, and thus I set about contacting people who, like me, had played FIFA 11 early to see if they would support a petition:

The Petition

"We declare that on the evidence of various early-preview playtests throughout the year that the effects of Pro Passing - both the contextual error, and the user-weighting element - are inadequate, and that we petition EA to make an effort to increase the effects of Pro Passing using the live patching process"

List of Supporters (who played FIFA 11 pre demo release)

Xaor
MikeyM24
AnabolicBeef
stuartyd
Avbarira
hazzabee
nickcave
Flamstead
AnthonyOA
Hunkyandrich
Mario Vale
oOo TOP CAT oOo
cowden_harley - ofhttp://www.evo-web.co.uk
johnny_on - ofhttp://www.evo-web.co.uk
Aryel Abrahami - http://www.godisageek.com
Asim Tanvir - http://www.godisageek.com
Fodder007 - FIFA Gamechanger andhttp://fodder007.blogspot.com/2010/08/fifa-11-preview.html
HandofBeadle - FIFA Gamechanger - and a great help with compiling this thread
T-Mills-85 - FIFA Gamechanger, writer and podcaster forhttp://www.fifasoccerblog.com
Dave797 - FIFA Gamechanger, writer and podcaster forhttp://www.fifasoccerblog.com
Adam Bhatti - Runs Kitana Media:http://www.fifasoccerblog.com, andhttp://www.winningelevenblog.com

We also have (at time of writing) over 225 petition signings through the poll

I am sure there are others who wish to add their names to this list who have played the game who I did not think to contact (as I sent probably no more than 20 or so PMs - and hundreds played at Gamerbase!) so if you do want to be added just post (or PM me) and I will happily add you to the list. This is a list of people who felt clear enough with their short playtime that this part of the game was not right - and that the game would be improved by Pro Passing becoming more pronounced.

To add to this, a poll run on evo-web.co.uk (it's still going) shows almost unanimous feeling that this is not looking right. 82% of voters believe that it does not look like there is enough error - 18.4% of which had played the game. Just 3% believe it looks fine (having not played the game) and the remaining 15% are abstentions.

Description of the problem

I have compiled a video which highlights some of the issues:



HD:http://youtu.be/ulkfO4Clbc4?hd=1

This description is my personal sense of the issue - and will not necessarily represent the feelings of the listed users

I'm just going to briefly explain what it is because a lot of people don't seem to quite understand what pro passing is. Pro Passing can be looked at as two primary elements, the user-weighting element, and the contextual element. The weighting element means that the power that a user inputs when using assisted/semi passing will be factored into the pass. When you make a pass, a marker will show up on the charge-bar (after you've let go) to show where the optimum weight was. If you are under this point, you should find the ball going slower to the target, or even coming short. At the other end of the spectrum, if you overweight, you might power the pass too far, or make it hard to control for the player on the other end. This element can be turned off, but it will be forced on for online. Just to reiterate - this part only affects assisted/semi, as manual has always been weighted by the user.

The other element is the contextual error. Like the shooting has been for a few games now, each pass you make will be affected by the circumstances. If it's a first time, long pass when the ball is travelling quickly or bouncing, the pass will be less likely to be accurate, as well as likely being slower, or bouncier. The intention is that if you consistently make difficult passes, it will make the next pass harder still. For someone ping-pong passing, the difficult will increase and increase until eventually the pass will be too slow, too bouncy, or too inaccurate causing an interception, missed pass, or a difficult pass to control.

So what's wrong? Well, the user weighting element is almost nonexistant. If you tap pass for a long pass, it will maybe be just a tiny little bit underdone. If you hold the button fully for a short pass, it will maybe be just a little bit too much. If you compare this to the manual passing bar, it is perhaps 20 times less sensitive. Tapping for a long pass or holding down fully for a short pass would be disastrous in both cases. This element, in the build I played seemed incredibly forgiving - which is seriously unnecessary as this element can be turned off for offline. It needs to be not only noticeable if you get it wrong - it also needs to be noticeable if you get it just right.

Not only does the user-weighting element of Pro Passing not seem to really punish scrappy passing and poor weighting, it doesn't even rectify the huge advantage for assisted that you really don't need to charge your passes.

The contextual error certainly is noticeable, but almost all of the error seems to be represented by the ball going slower, or bouncier. This just doesn't make a huge amount of footballing sense to me - just as many bad passes are overhit as underhit - the really problematic passes are often the overhit ones not the underhit ones. An underhit pass will generally not be ideal, but will probably get to the target - and that's the general thing which happens in FIFA 11. Even when the error is applied - like when you try to pingpongpass - the passes are still invariably successful, even if they slow you up a bit. What directional error there is, is so minimal that you struggle for chances to see it occur to any meaningful extent.

A contributing issue is the recurrent lack of interceptions, but I can't help feeling that it would be helped a lot if more passes, especially difficult passes were going astray directionally, and more of them being overhit rather than underhit. We need to see passes going too hard, too soft, too bouncy, too left, too right - and we need to see this error coming into play in a wider range of situations. I feel that more error needs to be applied to the best players. This must not be something where the best passers are near enough ignored by Pro Passing - Fabregas and Xavi are not capable of making decent 180 degree spinning first time passes.

Passes over the angle of 90 degrees need to find their accuracy dropping exponentially - and we also need to see error more pronounced due to the length of the pass. Most of the 'error' is applied for first time passes - and whilst that is key in solving pingpong passing, EA should definitely go further to solve the overall issue with FIFA's passing - that it is generally far too accurate and requires far too little thought about where, and when you should pass.

We must reach a situation where passes over 100 degrees are seriously discouraged - I frankly don't ever want to see a decent 180 degree pass ever again - but there is no way that the current Pro Passing will achieve that - this video

FIFA 11 holds all the hallmarks of a game which, whilst knowing exactly what its hardcore community wants, fundamentally will not do it because it's scared of upsetting the casual market.

Quotations from others on this issue

and I was thinking that more skill would be brought into it, bit like PES 2011, but what we actually got was, on the auto and semi-auto settings is slower passing - basically the ball would bobble, the pace of the game is slowed down, so it stops the rush of the passing, but the direction of the passes are still very easy to pull off

You're not going to educate [the masses] by doing it for them - you've gotta make it a little bit harder and that's the way you get a better community of gamers who would have more respect for the game

Aryel Abrahami -http://www.godisageek.com/2010/08/pes-2011-vs-fifa-11-podcast-first-leg/

I still think it's ping-pong to be honest - that's on assisted, obviously. You can still press pass pass pass and it will still go to your player. There is perhaps a 0.1-0.2% error here or there - but I really don't see a whole lot of difference from FIFA 10

Asim Tanvir -http://www.godisageek.com/2010/08/pes-2011-vs-fifa-11-podcast-first-leg/

Pro Passing should be one of THE big features they were looking to add and yet it's so watered down you have to measure it in parts per million.

The user skill aspect of the game (the powerbar) is extremely subtle to the point where I couldnt tell whether it was on or off

HandofBeadle

I just think that if pro passing was the answer to ping pong, then as it stands, it hasn't worked. I will say, and I hope that Nick will agree, that when we got the chance to play on friday, it was much more pronounced with lower league teams than we saw in the demo build with high rated teams.

The obvious issue with this is that ping pong passing was only ever an problem online. Seeing as i rarely played against anyone but a 5 star team online in fifa10, then it's done very little to address the issue.

T-Mills-85


Why this matters

EA constantly tell us that they listen to us - well this is their opportunity to prove it.

With FIFA 11, out of all the features which we've been told about, one of the most powerful is EA's ability to livepatch the game - a system where they can tune aspects of the game without anything like the cost, or time taken with going through Microsoft and Sony. I suspect that there may be quite a few things that this community will come to feel should be changed once the demo, and game release. What matters for us, is whether we can persuade EA, and if we do, to understand how to do it effectively next time around.

So, I hope this can be looked on as a first, potentially of many similar campaigns to alter the game to be more realistic, and more fair. The sooner we get going with these things the better - and I hope the fact that many people who've played this game feel there is an issue (many of whom are some of the most reputable members of the community) is an alarm bell to EA to start looking into this issue as soon as possible.

As note, I know EA have already said that they have made some changes to this since the demo build. To quote Gary Paterson's announcement of these changes:

EA_GaryPaterson wrote:We've just made a change today (i.e. 5 mins ago) that will make this a little more noticable. It's not going to be a drastic change but it should bring it slightly closer to what you are looking for."

I'd love to believe that this was enough, but you can almost sense that Gary Paterson doesn't think it is! With all due to respect to EA, Pro Passing in its current state doesn't need something being made a 'little' more noticeable. It DOES need drastic changes. These changes are highly unlikely to be enough - in fact, I'd near guarantee it - which is why I'm forging forward with this.

The poll above is to be used as a petition. The polls need a second option but I'd ask that people do not vote for it. This forum doesn't have the capability to make the vote public so I can't do quite what I'd like with the poll. As it is, if you support this petition, 'sign' it by voting. I'm not trying to stop people from saying no - please post all the criticism you like - but until everyone's played it I think it's best as just a petition.

If you want to use a signature to advertise this, go ahead, nick the one I'm using if it's not too bad for your tastes!

List of things I/others are bored of repeating

Pro Passing DOES affect manual - and if the contextual element of Pro Passing is this far wrong for assisted, it is also wrong for manual.

I concur

Agreed.

no idea what is this but agreed

Please stop these threads.

They wont change anything due to a petitions.

A well written post with a very valid argument and lots of sources and material to back it up. Just how it should be done. +1 from me.

cem_ea_id.PlatinumWata wrote:Please stop these threads.

They wont change anything due to a petitions.

the making of the game is already finished, it is just awaited to be sold

cem_ea_id.PlatinumWata wrote:Please stop these threads.

They wont change anything due to a petitions.

Better than sitting there like a *, doing nothing, and then complaining about it once it's too late. EA have said they will listen to us, and they have a live patching process to change things, if you're right, let's at least call their bluff.

These are exactly the types of threads that the dev team looks at for insight. Well put together Xaor

cem_ea_id.Blue_forever123 wrote:

cem_ea_id.PlatinumWata wrote:Please stop these threads.

They wont change anything due to a petitions.

the making of the game is already finished, it is just awaited to be sold

It's already been said that certain things can be patched after release this year. If Pro Passing is one of them, then this isn't a waste of time at all.

Exactly. I won't lie and say I haven't spent a rather long period of time compiling all this - it's taken a fair while. Frankly, if this doesn't work, I'm not sure what will, if that makes sense. Hopefully it does work, and hopefully it shows a way that we can change other issues to be more realistic too - if not, fine, we've still gained a very important piece of information.

I disagree. You guys are forgetting that back in the PS2 days there was never even an option for assisted passing and the game played just fine.

With the much improved user control and player response times on defense it will be much easier to play off the ball defense and easily intercept those passes you showed in the video. Intercepting passes was extremely difficult in FIFA 10 which is why ping-pong passing was such an issue because it was basically impossible to stop. But with the improved player control on defense in FIFA 11 intercepting passes will be much easier and stopping ping pong passing won't be as difficult.

I originally thought Pro-passing was a bad idea but looking at that video it doesn't look too bad. I think EA should leave it as it is. If they make pro passing have too large of an effect then the game will become too difficult in terms of attack.

In my opinion the guys playing defense in the video should learn how to anticipate and defend. If I were playing I would have easily intercepted those passes because they were so predictable. Instead of complaining that the passes should be more off target, learn to defend better.

cem_ea_id.PlatinumWata wrote:Please stop these threads.

They wont change anything due to a petitions.

You re an *. Go to your pointless sig's thread..

Thank you Xaor for making an useful and relevant thread.

Haven't had my hands on FIFA11 yet, but I do trust the views of a few of the members who have highlighted this as an issue, great thread, great write-up, hopefull EA do have a look at this, I'm sure we'll find out just how much depth has been put into Pro Passing when the demo is out as we'll have thousends of views on it and not just a few.

I will vote but it's an utter waste of time, shame because that video must have taken some serious effort.

Just face it, they only care about making money. Gary Paterson has shown time and time again that he says one thing in marketing videos but then does something completely different to appease the "casual gamer".

I probably won't be buying FIFA this year, unless I see the bugs in manual controls have been fixed on the demo. PES is looking like the simulation option this year and I suspect next year it will leap ahead of FIFA again, and EA will only have themselves to blame.